Not to want to take teenager daughter on holiday

[potatopeel]

I have DD who is 17 who has a horrendous attitude, she's incredibly rude, grumpy, snappy, inconsiderate and very very controlling. She is her fathers double, hence me leaving him and her having no contact. She has younger siblings who are also NC with him. They are completely different to her, just your average kids, occasionally naughty/ rude/ annoying/ lazy etc, so by no means perfect.
DH and I are desperate for a holiday, we both work very hard and are very busy with kids etc. But we really want a relaxing holiday. If we take DD she will demand certain rooms/ seats on plane / days out / food and constantly ask for alcohol (we rarely say yes, so not sure why she does this) It's draining. If we leave her at home she'll trash the house, so not an option, we have no one we want to loose friendship enough to leave her with them.
We offered to pay for her and her friends to have a caravan holiday near family to keep an eye on her, but she says as they are under 18 they don't have ID and can't go drinking so she refused.
So we are left with the option to take her. So paying out a lot of money to feel uncomfortable and on edge somewhere else. DS15 has already expressed his concerns. We all do bend to her whims and wishes, not ideal but it's very difficult dealing with the fall out if we don't.
She doesn't see what she does or how she harms people. Even if it's staring her in the face.
She's ruined her passport trying to alter it to get a fake ID. I have told her she must pay to replace it, as she ruined it. DH has said he know we'll end up paying for it.
I think of laying down the ground rules before going (for the eldest not the others - seems ridiculous) but She'll ignore them or have an excuse.
AIBU not to want to take her, but do it and begrudge it?

I feel sorry for your dd. She said she didn’t think she’d be able to behave for the week. Just sit there and really think about it. A girl, by society’s standards is on the cusp of womanhood and is freaked by her own behaviour.

Did you actually clearly say to her “I love you, I want you to come, you are my daughter, precious and special. So you think you’ll struggle with the week. Let’s come up with some coping strategies. We are a team. We will deal with this together.”? Have you asked her if she is happy? No one with this behaviour makes her happy imo. Have you asked her what you could do to help? Then let her rant and still been there to discuss it?

You had an opportunity to discuss the situation with her calmly. Idk if you took it but I think she was crying out for you to give her the reassurance that she’s good enough and loved enough to have her place in the family regardless of her behaviour.

As usual, the blank-slate-ists on this thread are highly amusing. Adoption studies and twin studies suggest uniformly that genes have a massive effect on people's personalities. Sometimes, a kid really does resemble the bloody horrible ex. I'm seen it a few times. Scolding the poor primary parent for feeling negatively towards their child is missing the point---if my child behaved the ways described by the OP, I sure as hell would feel negatively towards her.

Thank you

OP is already living in a difficult situation. Posters piling in to tell her to "just be a parent" are utterly fucking clueless

Good luck OP. I don't have any pat answers, just shed loads of empathy.

wtffgs
This child didn’t choose to be born. Fine if her mother wishes to distance herself from her child for a while when she is an adult. But she is a child.

Perhaps the situation right now isn’t salvageable. However, op hasn’t had outside intervention and hasn’t responded to suggestions of getting a psychologist to come to the home to work with the family. Writing off a child or even a young adult in this way isn’t fair. She’s being vile. But she’s not incredibly out of control, breaking the law or acting in highly risky ways.

Sorry you are going through this op. It does sound really difficult.

Fwiw, I agree about your DD sounding terribly anxious - like perhaps she has been given too much control - and can't handle it. Or she is frightened of her own feelings somehow. Or she is anxious about life generally which explains the controlling behaviour. Maybe she has been told so many times that she resembles your ex that she is afraid of becoming him, or thinks that as she has been characterised like him, she may as well play up to that stereotype. I agree with pp, that she doesn't sound happy.

In your shoes, I think I would be insisting that she came on holiday and having very strictly agreed rules beforehand. Could you afford to pay for a (well behaved) friend of hers to come with you too?

And if you can afford it, before the summer, I would be booking her sessions with a licensed pyschologist who specializes in adolescent behaviour to hopefully get her to feel better about herself and impeove her relationship with herself, with you, and the rest of the family.

Potato you have my sympathy.
And y y to the pp who said you have to have actually parented a teenager, otherwise your advice is idealised and theoretical...( I know we have all BEEN teenagers but that is different).

The thread really shows the impossibility of knowing what is the right thing to do with a teenager. The range of advice offered is inconsistent and contradictory, with no clear consensus....
Take her on holiday. Leave her at home. Take her on a different holiday.
You are too controlling. You are too lax.
You need to try more carrot. You need to try more stick.
You don't love her enough. You do love her-because you're trying to resolve things.
She needs boundaries. She's grown up and needs freedom.....
She's entitled to her opinion. She's manipulative.
There is no easy answer. It is difficult and draining. Persevere.

I agree with you Gotta; there is no easy way to parent teens, and there is so much conflicting advice. I do think they like boundaries though, even though they think they don’t. Their hormones and emotions are all over the shop, and you as the parent are actually meant to be the rudder that is quietly guiding them through the storm. If they think you’re a walkover they won’t respect you! They need to feel safe in their boundaries to push against the walls but know they won’t collapse. If the walls are too thin and tenuous they will push through time and again because they have nothing but contempt for those weak walls. Unfortunately this makes them feel unsafe so they act up, pushing and floundering as far as they can outside the boundaries where really they are looking for the secure walls to keep them safe. That’s why even if they have permissive parents they can behave better at school / work / any setting where boundaries are clear.

We think as parents that we are being loving by letting them do what they want and by being too friendly with them, but they hate it really. I’m not saying you can’t have an open, friendly, loving relationship with a teen, but there has to be a hierarchy. You are the boss. They are, despite outer appearances, still very immature.

*Disclaimer: I have teens, but am still going through it, so I’m no expert!

Has she always been like this, or is it something that's come on over the course of a few years? My dd is 9, she is extremely volatile and Angry, refuses to do things, can be violent, manipulative etc. It makes life very difficult for everyone in the house. We have to be firm and she needs boundaries, she knows there wI'll be consequences too. I have also realised that I sometimes need to choose my battles.

I don't think you should give yr dd the treat of a caravan holiday, she needs to prove herself responsible and trashing her bedroom isn't doing that. You need to remove devices and/or put in sanctions for her to improve her behaviour.

She needs to come with you, she cannot be trusted on her own, and you need to be a united front, strong and stand up to her. If she moans, let her. If she strops, let her. Don't enable this behaviour by giving in to her demands. Good luck op.

When you talk to her about it do you separate her from her behaviour? I think thats a very powerful message.

I think being 17 can be tricky for most young people , you are completely dependent on your parents and yet you don't feel like a child anymore.

I really feel for you OP, it is a horrible situation for the whole family to live with, including your daughter. I include your daughter because she doesn't sound happy either.

she has complete autonomy in deciding what she wants to do best to make her happiest.

^^ It sounds like she doesn't have a clue though as to what would make her happy at the moment.

Good luck and I hope you all get to enjoy your holiday

And TBH my answer to her statement of not being sure if she could be nice all week would have been ' me neither, but lets do our best not to kill anyone !' Do people really spend an entire week on holiday with their families and manage to be nice for the whole time ?

It sounds unbearably hard. I feel sad for everyone. I will say that the friend who offered to have her obviously knows what she's like. I have my friends just teen for a couple of days 2/3 times a year. She is honestly really difficult (though a little better with me - not because I'm any better than my friend but just because they are usually better for other people) and I do it because my friend helps me out in other ways and I want her to have a break. She takes the other children to an activity that just teen doesn't like and then later takes just teen for a similar time to do something. So don't dismiss the option- have you said to dd that she could stay with x.

On the one hand I felt sad for your dd she she said she didn't think she could be nice for a week, but then I reflected and it's so dependent on tone. It sounds like you reassured her that all were looking for was being ok, and that if she needed space etc she could have it. And I'm sure you said this but I'd use that conversation to reassure her that even when she isn't nice you love her, even when you don't like how she's behaving.

I also quite like **DiscontinuedModelHusband suggestion to say yes if you really want to you can stay at home, but here are the boundaries. If anything goes wrong there will be a consequence (like she works to get money back or does jobs to equivalent) but if all goes well she can put the cost of what it would cost to take her on holiday towards something shed like to do.

So I think I'd sit down with her and offer those three options, it's fine to give a deadline - say next week?

It sounds as if you're trying to balance everyone's needs and wants and that's exhausting and occasionally you just want a sit and strop and say "It isn't fair" so ignore all the perfect parents who have raised perfect teens and treat yourself to a tipple on a sunny day (but may be wait till 11 O clock or something )

Maybe cancel the holiday and use the money to get some help for your daughter. Poor girl needs some therapy!

Thanks everyone for all the advice, criticism and sympathy, I have read all of your comments, we have thought long and hard about what best to do, what is best not to do, not just for DD but also the other children in the family- they are just as important as DD.

I can say at the moment I am none the wiser as to a solution. But what won't be happening is -
Her having a holiday with just friends
Being left behind in the house whilst the rest of the family go on holiday
She won't be left with friends of ours whilst we go away
There won't be separate holidays for parents and children- that wouldn't be fair on the kids, or the parent with all the rest or with DD (she'd feel like shit, and would show it)

This leaves us with only 2 options -
Take her and run the risk of her ruining the time away
Cancel the holiday and have one in 7/8 years (we hope) when she's fully responsible for herself.

I have told her she needs therapy, she knows she does. But is still refusing.

If by chance anyone has any epiphanies please do let me know. The last one I had from a friend of mine who knows her and I very well 'boot camp!' Not sure if it's a kick or a hug that's going to do it - I think we'll try the latter first.

How bad would the "ruining" be? What's a plausible worst case if you took her with you?

I would be concerned about giving what she said to you the power to cancel the holiday. Because that's already letting her ruin it for everyone, and she would feel pretty shit about that too.

Whatever you decide, I don't think there is an epiphany. Sometimes all you can do is the least-worst option, whatever you judge that to be

What about sending her on a summer adventure with the Outward bound trust, people her own age learning life skills for a week or more and having a great time doing it.
www.outwardbound.org.uk/

Op l second boot camp.

Potato have a look at something called therapeutic parenting and developmental trauma. I think it might be a useful tool for you. Developmental trauma sounds a bit scary but it is something a child can struggle with after a divorce or separation. Look at National Association of Therapeutic Parents on Fb, very helpful and supportive and lots of people who will understand what you're struggling with. Good luck.

Hugs

It sounds incredibly difficult for everyone. It does sound like you need family therapy or individual therapy for your daughter. Young people are usually controlling as a reaction to anxiety. Does she have an insecure attachment to you and the family? Is he aware that she's similar to her dad (who she presumably knows you hate?). She's probably very entrenched now as the black sheep of the family and it's going to be incredibly difficult to shift that role. Leaving her at home on her own while you all go off sounds awful for her though, especially when she's already probably aware that she's not wanted around.

I think you should all go together, as a family; I also think, from what you have said, that a lot of her behaviour is testing you all as a family. Her behaviour is very typical of older children who have been through the care system; regardless of the fact that they most likely were removed due to safeguarding / abuse, they ultimately often feel rejected and may behave badly in 'fight or flight mode' I.e if they behave badly then they prove to themselves that nobody wants them. She has been totally rejected, as I understand it, by her father (you say they have no contact)- whether that is true or not, that is how she probably views it. You haven't confirmed either way, but are the other children your husband's? I suspect she feels, even with no grounds to do so, as though she isn't as good as your 'new family' She is also probably contending with the thought, and fear, that she might turn into her father.
So rather than proving her right, that if she behaves badly she will be rejected, I would prove her wrong and insist she goes. Rather than present it fait accompli, can she be involved with some of the planning, ie helping decide where to go/stay. Think outside the box regarding the type of holiday. Maybe do something totally different. Maybe go back somewhere you took her as a small child. Center Parcs maybe with something for everyone. A city break.
I think in this instance it is important to include her, reinforcing that you love her. Definitely put consequences at home in place e.g when disturbing revision, remove all noise making equipment, wifi etc.

And yes to counselling/therapy.

piedpiper gives excellent advice.

I would just take her. She's 17; surely she can do her own thing most of the time on holiday anyway?

Plane journey: only book seats together with the little ones; her and DS 16 have random allocated seats (so it's not just her sitting on her own).

Trips/ days out. Have a look online now and let everyone choose a trip, or say we'll have two trips and all negotiate. Or the adults decide: one waterpark, one boat trip, whatever, take charge. It sounds like she is given too much choice in some ways anyway.
Alcohol; don't see the problem with a drink or two in the evening, as you let her drink with friends.
Lots of books or music and headphones for her so she can just chill out.
Btw you said you would have to wait 7/8 years now to have a nice relaxing holiday. Why is that?

If you all don't go on holiday, Dd will both have the power and guilt for feeling responsible for the whole family missing a holiday, and it will be another thing for you to resent her for. And for everyone else in the family to resent her for.

OP, what a difficult time you are going through.

Have you seen this book? It's called 10 days to a Less Defiant Child, and it gives strategies to deal with it. I found it very helpful when my DS went through a terrible stage.

From the book:
In this updated edition, parents will learn how to face new challenges, including defiance resulting from excessive technology use (even to the point of addiction) and the stress of modern family life. Dr. Bernstein explains what causes defiance in kids and why it’s so destructive to the family, then offers parents a step–by–step guide on how to reduce conflict and end upsetting behaviors.