Not to want to take teenager daughter on holiday

[potatopeel]

I have DD who is 17 who has a horrendous attitude, she's incredibly rude, grumpy, snappy, inconsiderate and very very controlling. She is her fathers double, hence me leaving him and her having no contact. She has younger siblings who are also NC with him. They are completely different to her, just your average kids, occasionally naughty/ rude/ annoying/ lazy etc, so by no means perfect.
DH and I are desperate for a holiday, we both work very hard and are very busy with kids etc. But we really want a relaxing holiday. If we take DD she will demand certain rooms/ seats on plane / days out / food and constantly ask for alcohol (we rarely say yes, so not sure why she does this) It's draining. If we leave her at home she'll trash the house, so not an option, we have no one we want to loose friendship enough to leave her with them.
We offered to pay for her and her friends to have a caravan holiday near family to keep an eye on her, but she says as they are under 18 they don't have ID and can't go drinking so she refused.
So we are left with the option to take her. So paying out a lot of money to feel uncomfortable and on edge somewhere else. DS15 has already expressed his concerns. We all do bend to her whims and wishes, not ideal but it's very difficult dealing with the fall out if we don't.
She doesn't see what she does or how she harms people. Even if it's staring her in the face.
She's ruined her passport trying to alter it to get a fake ID. I have told her she must pay to replace it, as she ruined it. DH has said he know we'll end up paying for it.
I think of laying down the ground rules before going (for the eldest not the others - seems ridiculous) but She'll ignore them or have an excuse.
AIBU not to want to take her, but do it and begrudge it?

Stop bending to her whims and wishes
This.
Start now.
Perhaps by the time you take her on holiday, she'll be a bit better behaved (it might take a while to fix overall, as presumably you've bent to her wishes for quite some time).
Make sure there are consequences to her actions. Make her pay for her passport if she wants to come. Don't back down on this.

If she sits and sulks on holiday because things don't go her way, so be it.

If she doesn't want to come with you, fair enough, ( I didn't want to go on holiday with my parents at 17), but if she trashes the house when you leave, make her pay for every last penny of damage. Make this absolutely clear to her before you go, and mean it. Don't hire a caravan, if you don't trust her at home, why would you pay for a caravan which she presumably would also trash?

If you think her behavior is 'typical teen' then get tough. If you think she is also deeply unhappy, then do all the above (rules can actually make teens feel more secure and loved), plus get some therapy for her.

I would definitely make her pay for the passport.

Am I the only sad one whos always loved to go away with my parents? Even at 17, 18 and even now at 35.

She sounds hard going. She doesn't sound like you can trust her to be left in the house without damage occurring and I can't imagine who would want to have her stay. Her behaviour doesn't sound like it warrants you rewarding it with a holiday in a caravan. I think you have to take her with you, and try to use the time together to build her social skills.

As usual, the blank-slate-ists on this thread are highly amusing. Adoption studies and twin studies suggest uniformly that genes have a massive effect on people's personalities. Sometimes, a kid really does resemble the bloody horrible ex. I'm seen it a few times. Scolding the poor primary parent for feeling negatively towards their child is missing the point---if my child behaved the ways described by the OP, I sure as hell would feel negatively towards her.

I didn't get on with my mother. I left home at 17.
I was determined not to have such a shit relationship with my kids.

Dd and I (17) love going away together. We have an absolute ball. This year ( again) it will be Greece.

As usual, the blank-slate-ists on this thread are highly amusing

Those words don't mean what you think they mean.

What do you think they mean?

What they actually mean. Unlike your bizarre usage.

Does she have a part time job?
She needs to learn a bit of responsibility and that actions have consequences , although comparing her to her dad is a bit tough...
If she's earning money then she can go away with friends....my dd did when she was 17 to festivals and magaluf and survived to tell the tale my idea of hell but you're only young once!
She also came with us on family holiday as well but at least she'd had a chance to do her 'own thing' and actually enjoyed being with us as we treated her fairly
What are her plans for next year when she leaves school/ college? Is she worried about her future
She does sound very unsettled and is using rebellion as a weapon , talk to her instead of creating conflict

Some teenagers are awful aren’t they😬 Take her on holiday, treat her the same as your other DC and ignore strops, sulks and tantrums.
She may behave better if she’s out of her comfort and none of you reward her bad behaviour by pandering to her.

What they actually mean. Unlike your bizarre usage.

If this is the general way you communicate with people, I can suspect your parents were probably relieved when you moved out.

"Blank-slate-ist" is hardly an official term of any kind. To clarify: I am using to describe people who, whenever they see a problem between a parent and child, can only ever see the causation arrows pointing on one direction (that of the mean parent causing problems in the child due to their parenting style or having negative feelings towards their child), and have difficulty grasping that some people actually do have more difficult personalities from the start, resulting in their parents having negative feelings towards them. The OP mentions having other children who do not have the "issues" that her daughter has.

Have a friend whose son is awfully similar to her shitty ex. She is a good mum who tries hard, but it is a very tough situation. It's not made easier when people around her try to imply that every issue her son has is her fault.

She's 17, so scarcely a child.

Take her but tell her you will be ignoring her tantrums and she can stay in her room sulking all day for all you care. Feed her if she joins you at mealtimes, otherwise let her starve.

She's a manipulative young woman and you and your DH are letting her get away with it. Stop it.

When did you and her dad split? Does she have the same father as the others? Teens are largely difficult but it's your job to create and enforce boundaries, but you seem more willing to blame her genetic relationship with her dad for her behaviour than look at the environment in which she's been raised. You need family therapy, it's very clear that you resent your own child, she's old enough to pick up on that. If you don't deal with this now you'll lose her for life. Have you seen how many threads on here come with a backstory of how awful mum was when growing up etc. It's not entirely your fault but it's also not entirely hers and you are the parent. Stop thinking about your holiday and think about doing something to salvage what little relationship you have left with her.

She's 17 so not an adult yet and another 8 years until her brain has fully developed.
I moved out of home at 17, it was the right thing for me but not something I'd want for my children.

Op I think you need firmer boundaries, you shouldn't be providing alcohol or caravans for her and a crowd of friends to party.
Take her on holiday and if she wants to sit sulking in a chair let her. Have zero expectations and don't fight or bribe her into doing anything she's not up for.

How old was your dd when you split? Was/is her father very critical and controlling of her or around her? Perhaps she’s acting out because you’re the safe one to act out against.

I was manipulated and controlled by my mother and brother. I finally sought some kind of autonomy in my teens and she berated me for any tiny rights I tried to forge. I also have a sensory noise problem and she was vile about that. Still brings it up and I’m my mid 40’s. By the way she carries on, you would think my behaviour was like your dds. It wasn’t but had I been like your dd, it would have bern justifiable.

Anyway. From my POV. She sounds very unhappy. Being too soft has definitely back fired. Your dd needs strong boundaries. She will have been most affected my your ex bring the eldest. If you can’t do it alone, I would definitely recommend a family psychologist. They can work wonders even at this age. It will be costly. But your relationship with your dd between you and her and her siblings is on the line. And seeing a psychologist isn’t about fixing her. It’s about teaching you to parent better and riding the family.

Don’t push her away. Be strong. Fix this. Expect tantrums and tears. But it can get better with outside help.

Ask her where she would like to go on holiday, it might be the last one you go all together as she is 17.
It has to be reasonably suitable for the young ones but let her have a say and get her to look online for nice places and restaurants.
She might still be horrible on itbut you must all ignore and rise above it. Smile through gritted teeth. What does it matter if she sits like a brick, sneers and whines its mostly her loss. The other DCs will be affected by you and. DHs response so be up beat and cheerful regardless. In fact perhaps she and other DCs could come up with the holiday plans, ? worth a try?

So take her, but ignore all her bullshit. When she whinges about alcohol just say 'I told you my stance on that' and nothing more. Ignore all her vile behaviour.

Just seen some more she’s 17, almost an adult updates. As lonesurvivor said, her brain isn’t developed yet. And won’t be til mid 20’s. On average the prefrontal cortex is only half way formed by age 18. She’s not working on the same brain power of us old fogies, who think they know a thing or 2, some of whom have no idea what it’s like to be controlled and manipulated.

You have to, have to, HAVE TO learn to ignore this awful behaviour. If you give it no credence at all then she ends up looking ridiculous. You can sit her down pre holiday and say 'Look, this is how it's going to be' - lay out your ground rules then. You don't need to repeat them on holiday, she's a big girl, she'll remember them. She's trying to wear you down. You have to pretend like she isn't. It's really fucking hard, I know, but you can't let her tyrannise you.

If this is the general way you communicate with people, I can suspect your parents were probably relieved when you moved out

Well thats lovely of you, but I lived alone at 17 because my single parent died/

Potato - I feel your pain. I mean, I REALLY feel your pain.
Had (and still have) a very similar problem.
We (DH & I, so no awful Ex in background) have the most beautiful daughter - people have always asked why she didn't go into modelling, TV work etc., because physically she is quite stunning (god only knows where the genes came from!!).
She's smart, got a good degree from a good Uni, and a good job, loads of mates/nice boyfriend in tow.
But she was, and still is to some degree (now 25) a right royal pain in the arse (also still lives at home). Everything, and I mean everything has to be her calling all the shots, and she frequently behaves like a stroppy teenager. We don't always give in to her, but find it hard to live with the consequences, as DH and I are cracking on a bit in years, and prefer a bit of peace and quiet.
Recalling past holidays, 10 years ago we went on holiday to London (at her request), and eventually things got so bad that one evening we actually left her (age 15) in the hotel room, and took our poor long suffering Ds out for a meal. We did everything SHE wanted - London Eye, Oxford Street shopping, Dad bought her the latest mobile phone, etc. only for her later to throw a monumental strop because couldn't dictate which restaurant we were to dine at (and didn't want to do what her younger brother wanted to do the following day when it was finally his choice). We never took her on holiday again.
Unless you have a child this demanding (and I genuinely don't know why she is as she is) you have no idea what poor Potato has had to put up with. What about her other children - do they have no rights or opinions? Walking on egg shells is no fun for anyone and it is a genuinely difficult situation. It's not that you don't love them, in fact you tend to over compensate because you think it's something you've done that makes them behave like that. Our other (now adult) child has never been hard work at all.
In all honesty at 17, if I were OP I would ask her daughter what she wants from her holiday and be guided by that. Good Luck OP - you are not alone.
Had to smile re. the fake ID - madam had one from age 15 (we later discovered).

I would be giving her a deadline for sorting out AND PAYING for a new passport. Otherwise she will never learn consequences.

Hi, I really feel for you! without sounding rude, in this day and age its probably super uncool to go on holiday with your parents anyway, and if she's a little madam anyway, this will certainly be the case! Has she got a school friend that would be will to let her stay with them? Preferably one that wont take any of her s*? Maybe a week with someone else's parents might make her appreciate you more. If a friend has offered to have her, take it lovely! They obviously know what she's like and wouldn't of offered without thinking about it. Kids tend to push the boundaries more with their own parents than with other adults. Personally by taking her or giving her other options that she might like is rewarding her for her poor behaviour. Maybe actually sit her down and say we don't want to take you on holiday because of your behaviour and because she's not nice to be around. Might hit home with her, it might not?

Any chance she could stay with her dad? You already know you've made a rod for your own back pandering to her.

You're not alone - I have a family member who went away with their DCs last summer including 2 girls around that age (holiday of a lifetime). They said they were never taking them away again, they were completely ungrateful, attitude stunk and walked around the whole time with faces like a smacked arse, making it unpleasant for the other 10 people who were there. 'She-bats from hell' I think was the phrase used.