To tell you about our first (bittersweet) win over the Girlguides transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I posted a thread in AIBU a few weeks ago about the Girlguides transgender policy. I'm on the App so can't link but in summary, the thread discussed the difficulties the policy posed for leaders.

Of particular concern is that transgirls should use the accommodation and bathrooms or the gender they identify as (fine) - but other girls don't get a choice and most importantly parents must not be told if a trans person is present. I see the need for confidentiality but I can also see why parents might object, for example, to their 12 yo daughter sharing a tent with a 14 yo natal male on camp without their knowledge or permission.

Anyway, despite all the letters and emails from me and others begging GGHQ to consult more widely with parents/leaders/girls and give us more practical guidance, none has been forthcoming.

So, I and some others spoke to the Sunday Times. I'm so glad they published - the implications of self ID reach far and wide and need to be properly thought out. But it's sad it had to get to this point. Some of my comments were edited out so I should say here that I love GG, I agonised over doing this and I think GG is making its policies with the best intentions.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-swap-boys-spark-guides-revolt-wtcv7xjk5?shareToken=772e2cb2a2f2c493cf7fdcdbc245ab9b

Note: I use "females" above to specify that I mean girls wishing to transition, not boys wishing to transition. Not in the dodgy sense as demonstrated by misogynists on the internet.

My older guides were actually discussing this issue in their meeting last week. We have a small but quite diverse unit, including girls with physical disabilities, mental health issues and learning difficulties.

They were talking about a trans-girl they know from school, and the consensus was that they would be happy for her to join the unit, although she is not currently interested. They did talk about the aspect of things such as changing clothes and sleeping arrangements.

One girl pointed out that we already have a lot of safe space rules around changing such as using individual cubicles at swimming or the loo on camp. A lot of them are very self conscious about their bodies, and don't want anyone seeing them!

Another noted that although everyone is equal at Guides, that doesn't mean they're the same, or that they get the same treatment. One girl needs a room on her own for trips so she can rest in the afternoon. Another has a one-on-one carer for all trips out of the centre, as she's a runner. One leader gets separate meals to the rest of us due to a laundry list of allergies. They felt that a trans Guide would just be another part of this - equal but different.

Someone did raise the penis issue (no pun intended) and how anyone could be a girl if they had a willy. This was very neatly stamped on by the oldest girl, who has a genetic syndrome, who pointed out that she doesn't have a womb, but she is still a girl.

There are clearly some learning points here for Guiding as a whole, particularly around the need to reassure parents and ensure they feel their children are kept safe. However, it struck me that the young people themselves were considerably more reasonable and open-minded in discussing the issue than many of the adults involved!

Someone did raise the penis issue (no pun intended) and how anyone could be a girl if they had a willy. This was very neatly stamped on by the oldest girl, who has a genetic syndrome, who pointed out that she doesn't have a womb, but she is still a girl...it struck me that the young people themselves were considerably more reasonable and open-minded in discussing the issue than many of the adults involved!

WTF? So a boy who declares he is a girl is biologically the same as a girl without a womb, in your opinion?

How depressing that girls are being robbed of their very identity by the propaganda of adults whose brains appear to have fallen out. That is not being open-minded, it's being very profoundly stupid. It's very telling that you used the term "stamped on" with approval.

We are utterly failing a generation of girls. Amazing how there is no pressure at all on boys and men to accept anyone with a vagina as literally male. It's always girls who have to make space.

The guide who asked how anyone with a willy could be female has more brains than the rest of you put together, by the sound of it. You should be ashamed of allowing her to be 'stamped on' and of encouraging impressionable teenagers to believe a lie that discourages them from asserting safe boundaries and their very identities as women.

I have no problem with this at all and i would let my daughter camp with a trans child

Awesome, how about the 50 year old fully bepenised Lesbian TransWoman who is running the group & popping in and out of tents, using the same showers etc etc.....

Because that's also on the cards.........

I'm less concerned by camping accommodation than I truly am by the loss of girl only space.

Someone did raise the penis issue (no pun intended) and how anyone could be a girl if they had a willy. This was very neatly stamped on by the oldest girl, who has a genetic syndrome, who pointed out that she doesn't have a womb, but she is still a girl

So you let a girl, who did no more than state a biological fact, be bullied? Open mindedness is great but we also need critical thinking skills. Your guide jumped straight into a false equivalency when she (understandably, this can't be easy for her) said that the absence of a womb doesn't make her less of a girl.

Being male or female is about more than willies or wombs. Males are generally taller than women, have more muscle mass and greater strength, have bigger lung capacity. On average thy have more body hair and a beard.

This is part of the issue. Men are on average stronger than us. We can be easily over powered. There's a reason why women are told to go out at night in groups, get a taxi after dark. But now we are saying it's ok to make girls share intimate spaces with a male, whether they want to or not, and crucially not tell their parents, because that boy with a penis says he's a girl.

I have no axe to grind with trans people. I'm sure that the worst case scenario that I fear with this policy has a very low chance of happening. Which is just as well, can you imagine the fall out?

We must be free to acknowledge our biological reality.

Someone did raise the penis issue (no pun intended) and how anyone could be a girl if they had a willy.

Great. You can now guarantee that if this girl ever needed someone to confide in it won't be you. I hope you're proud.

I would hardly be much cop as a leader if I let my girls bully each other, or bullied them myself. They are teenagers, and capable of holding reasonable debate with each other without resorting to that.

The comment about penises led to quite a long discussion, firstly when the girl made that comment about her own lack of womb, then they started talking about intersex conditions such as that of certain athletes like Castor Semoya. They're incredibly well informed young women, and importantly, able to listen to each other's views and reconsider their own.

AgathaBadenPowell - that's a good point about differing strengths between sexes. Having girls with physical disabilities means we also have to take that into account to ensure they get equal and safe treatment as they can be more vulnerable than a child without additional needs. I tend to think of trans-children as those having started treatment before puberty, or having delayed the onset of puberty while seeing a psychologist. Clearly a child who has partially experienced puberty would be dealing with some of the advantages or disadvantages that brings.

IllustriouslyIllogical - I have no experience of be-penised 50 year old trans lesbians, but I do know a number of lesbian women working in Guiding. If anything, they are even more safe-care aware than the straight women . Our county had safe space training recently, and under Guiding regulations no leader of either gender would be using a shower at the same time or close to the same time as a young person, and tent or room checks would be done with another leader. Even social media groups, emails and texts are shared with another leader to ensure there can be no concerns about grooming.

This was very neatly stamped on by the oldest girl, who has a genetic syndrome, who pointed out that she doesn't have a womb, but she is still a girl.

It’s a nonsense comparison.

Thank you Agnes for asking the questions and for your tenacity in getting heard.

SiolGhoraidh

Why doesn't Guiding have male leaders and male guides?

This was very neatly stamped on by the oldest girl, who has a genetic syndrome, who pointed out that she doesn't have a womb, but she is still a girl

Perhaps it was your choice of words. I wasn't there but it certainly sounds like shutting down a young woman who merely stated a biological fact.

Yes, we make adaptations to allow for differences in strengths and abilities between the girls. Being fair does not always mean treating everyone the same. I would argue that being fair transchildren does not necessarily mean treating them exactly the same as other girls, especially when same treatment results in other girls being indirectly discriminated against.

One thing we can agree on is that scare mongering is not helpful. No adult is in the children's showers (there are VERY strict rules about separate facilities), ideally adults don't share sleeping accommodation and if they do (like in a hall or guide hut) at least two adults must be present, there must be some separation and no shared bedding. Adults do not have girls as contacts on social media and we don't email or phone or text girls directly.

There is a concern that a man could exploit self id to become a "woman" as per GG's definition and to gain access to girls - in which case I'm sure they won't follow the rules. I have no problem sharing the adults facilities with a lesbian but I'm not sure I'd want to share with a trans man I didn't know and trust.

They're incredibly well informed young women,

If they think that someone their age who has a penis is anything other than male, biologically and legally, they are NOT well informed. They have bowed to peer pressure, apart from the one who bravely questioned.

Secondly, and as teenagers I'll forgive them, but not you, intersex has sod all to do with trans and associated issues.

Isn’t there an issue here that no one is talking about - pregnancy?
Believe me I’m not the sort of parent who thinks young people will be ‘at it’ as soon as my back is turned. My 13 year old has mixed sleepovers, they are good kids and seem to be able to respect each other.

However there is another scenario I know of between a young teenage girl and a ‘trans girl’ who was a few years older and a ‘lesbian’- who still had a penis. Where does the safeguarding lie with this?

I think transgender people should absolutely be accommodated and included - but leaders/parents/teachers need to be given the power to decide parameters according to the need of the trans individual and the needs of the wider group.

All too often girls are socialised into internalising their concerns about their privacy in favour of what the adult wants to hear.

@homeTIRF you say that diversity targets are bad because the best person should be given the job irrespective of their characteristics.

The whole problem is that today the best person is not given the job, it tends to go to the white middle class man. As an example, the orchestra who insisted that reason it was predominantly male was because the men were better players. Once the audition was made blind however, the percentage of women accepted shot up to around 50%.

If you send out identical cvs differing only in the persons name then the white male name is much more likely to get the interview than the female name or the BAME name.

Tinycitrus

Actually, that is a very good point that I had never considered. A gay trans girl, with a penis, who fancies other girls. Obviously they will indulge in sexual activity just as much as other teens.

But if they are included in the female sexual education lessons at school and are accommodated and accepted as a female from a young age, will the lines of protection against pregnancy still be completely understood?

Also will schools have to have special sex Ed added to include what ‘girls with penises’ should do for contraception?

@StickThatInYourPipe quite. The ceo of GG was formerly the ceo of the family planning association so presumably she knows about these things...

@ShushAlexaIsListening I work with vulnerable children as well as being a Rainbow leader, I know exactly how many more risks to children are recognised now compared to when I was at school and how many new concerns there are now. I also know that statistically there is more risk to children from their own family than there is from transgender children.

I was actually abused as a child, for quite a large part of my childhood, sometimes incredibly violently, and nearly always somewhere I should have been safe. However that is because he was evil, It does not make everyone with a penis a threat. Please don't assume things about my past just because I don't believe there is a predator round every corner.

AgnesBadenPowell oh of course, absolutely, no worries then!

" A gay trans girl, with a penis, who fancies other girls"

, I think think the real world would say that was a straight, ( possibly effeminate) boy.

SuitedandBooted

Ahhh I see you have not recently been on Lily Madigans twitter account. I have learnt a lot this week

That’s is transphobic, Suited. They say they are a girl so they are a girl.

not that I agree

It does not make everyone with a penis a threat

I'm very sorry to hear about your childhood.

No one thinks that everyone with a penis is a threat. We think that some people with penises are a threat: that's why we have safeguarding in the first place (99% of contact sexual crime is committed by men). Presumably you are not opposed to safeguarding, just because not all men are abusers?

We are opposed to self-ID because we think that abusers will exploit it to abuse. It's not really about trans people at all. Trans-identifying men abuse at the same rate as other men. As the trans population is small, the number of trans-identifying abusers is a small percentage of a small percentage of the population. The concern is much more about non-trans identifying men pretending to self-ID as women to access vulnerable women and girls.

I do visit dear Lily.
It is an education in deluded narcissism.