To tell you about our first (bittersweet) win over the Girlguides transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I posted a thread in AIBU a few weeks ago about the Girlguides transgender policy. I'm on the App so can't link but in summary, the thread discussed the difficulties the policy posed for leaders.

Of particular concern is that transgirls should use the accommodation and bathrooms or the gender they identify as (fine) - but other girls don't get a choice and most importantly parents must not be told if a trans person is present. I see the need for confidentiality but I can also see why parents might object, for example, to their 12 yo daughter sharing a tent with a 14 yo natal male on camp without their knowledge or permission.

Anyway, despite all the letters and emails from me and others begging GGHQ to consult more widely with parents/leaders/girls and give us more practical guidance, none has been forthcoming.

So, I and some others spoke to the Sunday Times. I'm so glad they published - the implications of self ID reach far and wide and need to be properly thought out. But it's sad it had to get to this point. Some of my comments were edited out so I should say here that I love GG, I agonised over doing this and I think GG is making its policies with the best intentions.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-swap-boys-spark-guides-revolt-wtcv7xjk5?shareToken=772e2cb2a2f2c493cf7fdcdbc245ab9b

But the effect of your approach would be to exclude the girls who no longer are able to participate. Why does that matter less?

Ps at least you’ve tried to answer, even if all you’ve managed is a sound bite rather than an explanation. That’s more than most people of your type ever attempt!

"more than most people of your type"

Are you as awful in real life?

Is your username your 'catchphrase'?

Inclusion ... Is always preferable? Always? Where do you draw the line?

Because inclusion should always beat exclusion.

No not always. Where including certain groups will mean other groups suffer significant disadvantage inclusion is not required. Equalities act.

There is no need to include biological males.

Trans identified females should be encouraged to remain however.

That would be trans inclusive and breaking down gender barriers and also remaining single sex.

Yes, just as awful.
You’re not a Seinfeld fan I see. No supposed there.
Got an answer to my question?

Ps I know it’s monday morning, and you’re full of the righteous anger of the pro trans warrior, but there’s no need to be quite so foul tempered.

Growing up, my Dad was in the army and we lived overseas for many years.

I join the Boy Scouts as the Girl Guides didn't have space.

We went camping, played sports and did activities together, like kids do, with no drama.

I have no problem with this at all and i would let my daughter camp with a trans child.

But others do kubex. Why should your experience and opinions be the rule for how they should feel about it?

kubex

You'd allow your girl child to get changed on front if a boy? How does your daughter feel about this or have you just decided that for her?

Kubex
I have no problem with this at all and i would let my daughter camp with a trans child

So you have specifically asked your daughter what she thinks about showering, dressing and undressing, and sharing a tent with a boy?

What did she say, exactly?

homeTIRF

Because inclusion should always beat exclusion.

That's an assertion without an explanation.

Is it the word inclusion? So should we include rapists in female prisons, for instance? If inclusion always beats exclusion.

Should we include white people in the rights of the BAME community?

Should we change the rules of diversity quotas, for instance. So that white people can be included in them?

Should all women shortlists, which are designed to redress the imbalance of female representation, include men?

And if that leads to fewer female representatives, is that okay with you?

@Datun

"So should we include rapists in female prisons, for instance?"

No. Exclusion (from society) is an integral part of prison.

"Should we include white people in the rights of the BAME community?"

Yes because the BAME (or whatever they become called next week) shouldn't have different rights to white people.

"Should we change the rules of diversity quotas, for instance. So that white people can be included in them?"

Diversity quotas are bullshit. You should be hiring the best, not someone because they're a one legged black lesbian and that ticks a few boxes.

"Should all women shortlists, which are designed to redress the imbalance of female representation, include men?"

I couldn't care less. Like a list of best female authors or best female director at the Oscars? I couldn't care less who directed a film or wrote a book and if you choose your 'media' because of the sex of the person who made it then I pity you and your sexist approach to life.

"And if that leads to fewer female representatives, is that okay with you?"

If they aren't as good as the competition then that's fine. The last thing I want is to live in a society with equality of outcome i.e. diversity quotas.

homeTIRF

Thank you for your replies. Shot through with sexism, racism, homophobia and ignorance, though they they are.

If you fail to acknowledge the structural sexism that has allowed women to be disadvantaged, then it's pointless speaking to you.

Same with racism.

You have never heard of the words unconscious bias, again pointless talking to you.

If you choose not to read the wealth of information, evidential, studied, and statistically proven, that shows the inherent power dynamic between men and women, and black people and white people, then again pointless talking to you.

I take it your user name is a play on terf? With the 'I' standing for inclusionary?

Good to know that it only includes privileged, straight, white men.

Which confirms what most people already think is driving this.

I see you.

“Exclusion from society is an integral part of prison.”
So what does that mean? Trans tightvto inclusion with persons of their chosen gender is suspended during the period of the sentence? But how can that be right? You likened trans rights to rights of racial minorities - are those rights lost on incerceration too? Surely they are unconditional?
You’re not even making it off the starting block here in terms of rational argument. Do you see that? If not I think you need to get off MN and attend to your own problems. They are substantial.

I've no doubt you'll report my sexist, racist, homophobic and ignorant post and it'll be quickly deleted.

"that's an assertion without an explanation".

I see you too whatever the fuck that means

I'm very happy that Guiding is accepting of trans and gender-nonconforming girls

Can't you see that those are entirely different things? YY to gender-nonconforming girls - Guiding has always supported girls who don't want to conform to femininity. But what is a trans girl? It's a boy who has been taught by society that wanting to do activities associated with girls means that he literally is a girl and has been born in the wrong body.

Trans is the exact opposite of gender nonconforming. Trans means enforcing gender stereotypes so rigidly that kids have to take puberty blockers and later sterilise themselves, in order to imitate the opposite sex.

Trans is based on three deeply regressive and homophobic ideas:

1. that liking things associated with the other sex means that you literally are the other sex and your body is so wrong that it needs medical intervention (this is homophobic because gender non-conforming kids are often gay)

2. that you should therefore medicalise yourself for the rest of your life, sterilise yourself and give up normal sexual function

3. that mutilating/medicalising your body, and adopting the dress & activities of the opposite sex will literally change you into the opposite sex.

It is completely mad and I cannot understand how anyone could view it as progressive. It's the most regressive ideology of modern times.

homeTIRF

I've no doubt you'll report my sexist, racist, homophobic and ignorant post and it'll be quickly deleted.

Absolutely not. It demonstrates exactly what I said it demonstrates. Which is why want to leave it right where it is.

... and I'm adding disablist too.

I think that’s right. They are bitterly resentful of advances made by women and identify, correctly, that certain female only spaces have been integral in achieving those.
Their claim that they are driven by a desire for inclusivity is shown to be false by their use of hate filled language, of which hometirf provides a relatively restrained example.

Also I would say that as the parent of a child with autism, I know a fair bit about exclusion. I don’t expect the likes of hometirf to start supporting people with asd any time soon, because they are not genuinely interested in inclusion. And that’s just fine with me. Such people do the cause of inclusion no favours.

For those such as @wurlycurly and @RainbowGlitterFairy

Have a read of this government paper on sexual abuse at school. Note the number of girls assualted in school, which as the report says in probably the tip of the iceberg.

Unfortunately, due to the large numbers of girls impacted, statistically it is likely that someone with a penis is a risk to girls. It could be your son, it could be one of your son's friends. It definitely won't be just one rougue boy committing the offences, the numbers are just too high for this to be the case.

It may not mean your son, or sons friends are Predators, but it may mean that they themselves are victims of peer pressure. As the report says, the focus is always on girls to protect themselves, rather than tackle the root of the problem or involving boys in becoming part of the solution.

Just because you weren't effected when in the cadets / scouts / schools, doesn't mean that others should feel safe.

Society has unfortunately shifted since we were kids ( or I was at least). I was in cadets (the proper navy base kind), I was big into martial arts, I was lucky to not experience any negatives due to my sex, but I 100% understand the wants and needs of girls, especially in an age of selfies, camera phones, 24x7 social media, rampant grooming, highly accessible online porn etc.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmwomeq/91/91.pdf

Scouts took non-males years ago. Guiding is the holdout, and they're finally adapting. Like it or lump it - it's not going away.

Are you aware that a few Scout, Cub and Beaver groups still do not admit girls? The boys like their own space, too.