To tell you about our first (bittersweet) win over the Girlguides transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I posted a thread in AIBU a few weeks ago about the Girlguides transgender policy. I'm on the App so can't link but in summary, the thread discussed the difficulties the policy posed for leaders.

Of particular concern is that transgirls should use the accommodation and bathrooms or the gender they identify as (fine) - but other girls don't get a choice and most importantly parents must not be told if a trans person is present. I see the need for confidentiality but I can also see why parents might object, for example, to their 12 yo daughter sharing a tent with a 14 yo natal male on camp without their knowledge or permission.

Anyway, despite all the letters and emails from me and others begging GGHQ to consult more widely with parents/leaders/girls and give us more practical guidance, none has been forthcoming.

So, I and some others spoke to the Sunday Times. I'm so glad they published - the implications of self ID reach far and wide and need to be properly thought out. But it's sad it had to get to this point. Some of my comments were edited out so I should say here that I love GG, I agonised over doing this and I think GG is making its policies with the best intentions.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-swap-boys-spark-guides-revolt-wtcv7xjk5?shareToken=772e2cb2a2f2c493cf7fdcdbc245ab9b

Bullying children? The article and indeed all my posts have been clear - trans children are welcome in my unit.

I will not stand by and see girls forced to leave Guiding because their parents insist they have a female only space (not much you can do about that if you're 5); I'm not prepared to lie by omission to parents who ask me if accommodation will be single sex; I refuse to run a residential where the feelings, privacy and dignity of ALL girls is not taken into account. This is all about balancing the rights of the trans child and the other girls. If the girls in my care want to share with their trans friend and their parents are all happy and consent - that's a result.

I'm not the one calling people bigots and fostering a hostile atmosphere that means that no matter how uncomfortable a young woman may feel, she doesn't feel able to say no to a transgender person's request. Biology does matter, our bodies are different, and it's entirely reasonable for an adolescent girl to request to share a tent with other biological females only.

I like this sensible comment that was below the article and which I have copied and pasted in its entirety :

Sessil 1 hour ago

I'm sure the policy change was well intentioned. It is incredibly important to support the individual children who are incredibly vulnerable due to their gender-identity. We need to promote tolerance and understanding.

AND we must consider the needs of girls.

if it is bullying children, why is it not bullying the tent full of biological girls into doing something they are not happy with? It is tough enough to be an adolescnet without adding boys who think they are girls into the mix.

Well done OP. It's brave to stand up and point this stuff in the current climate.

How often is this an issue?

Why is this always a comment on these things? Most safe-guarding and risk assessment deals with things that aren’t likely to happen much - but if they do it’s one time too many.

I think most trans children are likely just to want to fit in and be accepted and a good well-thought out policy will allow that to happen. But there’s such a rise in children “identifying” as gender fluid, non binary, gender non conforming etc etc that it is not just the genuinely disphoria kids any more.

There a massive rise in trans identifying children/teens.

Puberty is confusing enough. Girl guides have a duty to all in their care to get this right.

Bombardier, could you answer blackeyedsusans question, and explain to us why the op is bullying children, but forcing girls who don’t want to to share accommodation with biologically male persons isn’t?
Could you also explain why you think the sexes are segregated at camps like this in the first place?
I’d really love to try and understand this a little better.

No bombardier, she's trying to stop the bullying of those girls who want a female only space but are too scared by bullies to speak up.

Well done OP. My DD will be joining Scouts. No way on earth would I send her to GGs if they as an organisation take her safety, privacy and dignity so lightly,

Well done for getting your views heard

I think the GG policy and self ID in general are wrong and worrying. I'm very trans and gender critical.

But I think done of the comments on here are a bit ott. Not running guide camps till the issue is sorted? Not allowing your child to join guides because of it? I could understand both those things if you had reason to think there was a transgender child/adult in the unit. But the chances of that are very low.

The majority of 10-15 year old girls are not guides. Most 10-15 year old boys are not trans. So the number of trans boys who want to join guides will be tiny. Really tiny. Seems silly to not do what you or the children want to do based on a very unlikely 'what if'

Hahahaha It's bullying men boys to protect the basic human rights of girls? Nice one. Fuck the patriarchy.

Well done OP, evolution not revolution

Well done OP, bullying children. You must be so so proud of myself.

You might consider getting a grip.

@AgnesBadenPowell it won't achieve anything, look at the number of members that complained about the changes to Rangers and the change to the promise, HQ will not listen, people will grumble, we will lose some leaders and the rest of Guiding will evolve, as it should.

As for those sending daughters to Scouts because of it. You do know that there is no rule in Scouting stating that young people must be split by gender for sleeping arrangements and that parents wouldn't necessarily know about any trans members there either.

RainbowGlitterFairy

And that's okay with you is it? I'd be extremely upset if my daughter had to share a tent with a boy and would go bat shit crazy if that information was deliberately kept from me.

@RainbowGlitterFairy the thing is, this isn't about a change of name, or a change in the wording of the promise.

This is about GG unilaterally changing the meaning of the word "girl". It is about GG putting the needs of one group above the other. It is asking leaders to lie to parents. This is a massive issue with implications for all girls, their privacy and safety. Other youth organisations will look to see what GG are doing and follow their lead.

GG has always been about helping girls break down stereotypes. Now we are defining girlhood by those very same stereotypes. Girls that don't fit the stereotype and don't identify as girls ARE EXPECTED TO LEAVE. It's a seismic shift in the whole ethos of guiding.

Well done op. These issues need to be discussed and it's great to see such a sensible, considered article in a major newspaper.

This is also guidance in Scottish schools.

So obviously in the cubs/beaver/scouting association where girls have been admitted for years, the same is happening?

How many trans boys are there in the GGthen?

OP well done, I think you've done a good thing and been very clear about the concerns.

I hope the GG listen to you.

So obviously in the cubs/beaver/scouting association where girls have been admitted for years, the same is happening?

The difference there is that girls are admitted as girls and treated as girls and having separate accommodation and facilities.
Here we are talking about boys who identify as girls being treated as girls, sharing sleeping quarters with girls, showers with girls, toilets with girls despite having a working penis. And any girl who complains is transphobic.

Even one case of upset girls would be too many in my view: why should it only be when something reaches dozens / hundreds / thousands that it becomes a problem?

@ThickSocksWoolyHat I'm not sure if I've read your post correctly so apologies if you know this. To be clear

• Scouting has been mixed sex for around 25 years. It takes girls who identify as girls, and boys who identify as boys.

• Scout camps usually have facilities segregated by sex

• Girlguides has always been female only.

• Girlguides is still female only. But GG has changed to the definition of female to "the innate inner sense of being a girl woman". So a boy who identifies as a girl is a girl for GG's purposes

• Boy who does not ID as a girl cannot join GG

• Boy who identifies as a girl is treated as a girl. That's fine but it also means they should share tents, use bathrooms etc used by girls. I would argue equal treatment does not always means treating people exactly the same

• Not all girls are happy with this. Starting your first period on camp is bad enough around other girls.

• Not all parents are happy with this - but it doesn't matter because GG has redefined a penis as female and leaders are NOT ALLOWED to tell them if a biological male will be sharing sleeping quarters etc with their daughter. So they wouldn't know and therefore can't be unhappy about it!

• GG are now talking about girl hood as feelings and expressions - are we seriously going to back to girls must like pink, wear dresses, have long hair etc? What if they don't? Are those girls actually trans boys?

• Girls who don't identify as a girl cannot join GG