To tell you about our first (bittersweet) win over the Girlguides transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I posted a thread in AIBU a few weeks ago about the Girlguides transgender policy. I'm on the App so can't link but in summary, the thread discussed the difficulties the policy posed for leaders.

Of particular concern is that transgirls should use the accommodation and bathrooms or the gender they identify as (fine) - but other girls don't get a choice and most importantly parents must not be told if a trans person is present. I see the need for confidentiality but I can also see why parents might object, for example, to their 12 yo daughter sharing a tent with a 14 yo natal male on camp without their knowledge or permission.

Anyway, despite all the letters and emails from me and others begging GGHQ to consult more widely with parents/leaders/girls and give us more practical guidance, none has been forthcoming.

So, I and some others spoke to the Sunday Times. I'm so glad they published - the implications of self ID reach far and wide and need to be properly thought out. But it's sad it had to get to this point. Some of my comments were edited out so I should say here that I love GG, I agonised over doing this and I think GG is making its policies with the best intentions.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-swap-boys-spark-guides-revolt-wtcv7xjk5?shareToken=772e2cb2a2f2c493cf7fdcdbc245ab9b

@Boulshired we are not allowed to talk about it (if we do we are hysterical, not all men are like that, etc) but there is absolutely a safeguarding risk. Remember self ID applies to leaders and well as children. Do we really think that this will not get abused?

I also know women who were assaulted in mixed sex camps.

It's not good enough to say that's a tiny risk. For the person that is abused or assaulted, the consequences can be catastrophic. And that's before we consider to the damage to the trust parents place in GG and reputational damage.

When I was 14 I joined the Boy Scouts, as it had just been opened up so girls could join the Boy Scouts. I was fed up with Girl Guiding, I found it boring and the Boy Scouts did more outdoorsy and interesting activities. Went on a mixed camp of boys and girls, had leaders talk about the size of mine and other females breasts, and had my breasts felt up during a camp out by a boy my age. I’m not sure what the answer is. I was glad to join the Boy Scouts as a girl, but I’m not sure about the whole mixed camping thing.

Scouts have been allowing young people of any gender to share accommodation for years.

But the whole point is that if you sign your son or daughter up to Cubs or Scouts, you have already consented to it being a unisex environment.

If you sign your daughter up to GG, you expect a single sex environment.

Why do the trans children need to join the single sex movement when they could join the unisex movement (and identify whichever way they like)?

If my male child felt they were trans, I would support them joining Scouts, not least because I feel it would have a wide range of gender “types” on offer - girls in Scouting might be more gender non-conforming, would be my outsiders opinion. And there would be more likely to be other trans children (born girls, identifying as boys).

There’s a huge Muslim population where girls actively require a single sex environment due to cultural/religious reasons. There’s a tiny trans community at that age group. And they can be accommodated in Scouting, whereas the Muslim girls can’t.

Why should the rights of the few outweigh the rights of the many?

"Why do the trans children need to join the single sex movement when they could join the unisex movement (and identify whichever way they like)?"

Because that's the unisex option which denies them the label of "girl/woman".

It's not really about the actual thing they're doing, it's about validation.

The thing is the moment you say "no" to one thing, then the whole thing comes tumbling down - they're not just girls/women because they say they are. Logically it's all or nothing.

Oh I know it’s about validation. And I’m OK with anyone being “validated” as long as it’s not at the expense of others.

Trans men (i.e. FTT, born female identifying male) are not shouting about how unfair everything is, as far as I can see.

I am so glad this is being covered more widely. I know in my areas GG is heavily oversubscribed because we live in an area with a large number of Muslim families and this is one of the places they feel happiest sending their daughters.
What a shame it will be for those girls to have to leave such an activity.

Please sign and share (even if just in person) this petition
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 asking for women to be consulted on self ID.

Exactly @CircleSquareCircleSquare this policy means girls who are perhaps already marginalised will miss out.

I did raise that point in a letter to GGHQ. They said they make no assumptions about other groups and if someone doesn't want to join GG then that's their choice. The Sunday Times has a copy of that email, BTW. I was shocked at how callous it was and completely ignored the fact that girls who are already members may leave

Breaking Free’ about gender stereotypes- will be interested to see how the trans narrative fits into that!

Exactly.

It's not only about about 14-year-old heterosexual boys sharing tents with 10, 12, 14 year old girls where none of the parents are allowed to be informed. Or the girls' opinion having any validity.

It's about claiming that being female, which is a description of your reproductive function/potential can be something that is determined by the way a male thinks.

It's utterly regressive.

Something that the girl guides have prided themselves on not being.

But, you know, men's opinions about what females are must be validated.

Well done OP. And thank you.

Thanks, op
You are brave and steadfast. Tbh, I had never really thought about guiding but if people like you are leaders then it may well lie in dd's future (provided the current insanity has passed)!

DD is a scout and is well aware that one of her fellow scouts is a transboy. On their last camp the girls refused to share a tent with him because he's a boy, and the boys refused to share a tent with him because he's physically a girl.

It was sorted by having a meeting with the boy's parent's and finding a solution that he was happy with and that satisfied everyone else.

Dialogue is the key.

@MrsWooster what a kind thing to say. I may have welled up a bit reading that.

Honestly, GG is amazing. They've messed this one up because Gendered Intelligence did their equality/gender training. I do actually feel a bit sorry for GG because they must have but under huge pressure to do this. And they will be under pressure to get rid of me I'm sure. But only a bit - if any organisation should have stood up for girls its GG.

With all this reaction - and if people can keep writing into GGHQ - we can make them see there is this huge silent majority that just wants some common sense applied.

So GG think that's its ok for a TIM to share a tent with other girls without informing the girls or their parents. Given they are sharing a tent with a member of the opposide sex I wonder if GG have considered the consequences of rape and/or pregnancy. I appreciate that this is a very unlikely scenario however it could happen. Surely the GG movement could be sued by the girl/her parents? or will they claim it's all in their 'T&Cs' and all girls go at their own risk?

This is very much worse case scenario however organisations such as GG surely should be undertaking risk assessment etc.

The problem with this as well is there might not even be a trans girl or trans woman leader but at camps with more than one unit meeting it could not be confirmed or denied because of confidentiality. Girls could be withdrawn for absolutely no reason.

@lostlemon in my last email to GG before I went to the Sunday Times, I asked them what would happen if a parent took legal action against me following sexual activity (consensual or not), pregnancy or an assault. Would they support me and would the insurance pay my defence costs?

Guess what? No answer

They've messed this one up because Gendered Intelligence did their equality/gender training. I do actually feel a bit sorry for GG because they must have but under huge pressure to do this.

I agree with this. This is such a new phenomena and and trans lobby groups are simply getting in first.

They are giving the impression that gender reassignment trumps the protector characteristic of sex. Which it doesn't.

They are also giving the impression that to disagree is transphobic. Which it isn't. Either legally or socially. In fact it's sexist not to take women/girls into account because sex is also a protected characteristic.

I've seen several instances where an organisation has come right out and said women only, under the equality act 2010 and listed the relevant clause.

And because it's a nonstarter, they don't get targeted.

It's only people who are woolly about the law or have just never had to consider it, who are being indoctrinated from the off.

Which then becomes a far harder path to tread if they reverse it.

It's very clear that GG havent thought this through at all. Surely if they are committed to this path they should be asking parents to sign something to say that they (the parents) understand and agree that their daughter may be sharing a tent overnight with a TIM and that they have consulted with their daughter prior to signing. Putting girls on the spot like this is not on.

Not all members ages 18-25 want to be in a leadership position and the trefoil guild is probably not for them yet.

All of the information on the website about the potential programme makes it clear that this is also fundentally untrue. There WILL be a provision that doesn't involve leadership.

I'm a bit late on this, but going back to the Times article: I've read, Agnes, that you're a bit disappointed that the article had to be truncated for reasons of space. But I think that overall the shorter article served the purpose very well. It's concise and to the point. Many people, if not already acquainted with the issue, might well have bypassed a longer article, but probably would have read a short article.

And it's about the Girl Guides, which everyone knows is for girls only. So that brief article (which I think was well written) might just have come to the attention of people who wouldn't hitherto have had a clue.

Missing the point I know but I don’t really see why girls and boys need segregated organisations. We get too het up about gender. I’ve a dd. She won’t be joining the girl guides. I didn’t either... my father didn’t support paramilitary organisations for children. I’ll get my coat.

I really don’t understand attitudes like yours wurlycurly. So you’re not interested in guides. Fine. Why on earth does that make the issues under discussion irrelevant to everyone else?
Self centred or what?

We get too het up about gender
I’m beginning to think we’re just not het up enough!

I just think it’s worth evaluating whether we need the ‘girl guides’
I’m broadening the discussion. As a society we are moving towards a future where ones gender is much less important. I have never wished to be defined by my gender and so welcome this. I don’t think ‘girls’ and ‘boys’ should be separated at school or otherwise.

As for the numbers thing: It's not about how many there have been or are likely to be. It is about the fundamental aspect allowing girls to be people, and not to be restricted by male attitudes. That at heart used to be the ethos of the Girl Guides.

Of course there aren't copious pervs waiting at the tent flap. That's not what it's about. It's about the expectation of girls, and their families, that girls are at the centre of the Girl Guides: going on camp, climbing trees, lighting a fire, having a period. It takes just one instance of a boy/trans to fundamentally change that experience.

There doesn't need to be any nefarious purpose on the part of that boy/trans child, and really there doesn't actually need any boy/trans to be present at any camp. The basic line is that now the Girl Guides is no longer about the life of girls.

So it's another example of where organisations/protocols that previously centred girls and women are no longer doing that.

I don’t think ‘girls’ and ‘boys’ should be separated at school or otherwise.

But there are times when boys and girls wanting to be apart from each other.

@wurlycurly Scouting is mixed sex. If GG were not “needed” then it would already have become mixed. Do you not agree Muslim girls should have the chance to go on trips away with an organisation like this?

Single sex schools are better for girls from 11 to 18.

It’s precisely the LACK of gendered expectations that makes these single sex spaces important.

Boys and girls should have fair and equal opportunities. As I am tired of explaining to my DC, equal does not necessarily mean “the same”.