To tell you about our first (bittersweet) win over the Girlguides transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I posted a thread in AIBU a few weeks ago about the Girlguides transgender policy. I'm on the App so can't link but in summary, the thread discussed the difficulties the policy posed for leaders.

Of particular concern is that transgirls should use the accommodation and bathrooms or the gender they identify as (fine) - but other girls don't get a choice and most importantly parents must not be told if a trans person is present. I see the need for confidentiality but I can also see why parents might object, for example, to their 12 yo daughter sharing a tent with a 14 yo natal male on camp without their knowledge or permission.

Anyway, despite all the letters and emails from me and others begging GGHQ to consult more widely with parents/leaders/girls and give us more practical guidance, none has been forthcoming.

So, I and some others spoke to the Sunday Times. I'm so glad they published - the implications of self ID reach far and wide and need to be properly thought out. But it's sad it had to get to this point. Some of my comments were edited out so I should say here that I love GG, I agonised over doing this and I think GG is making its policies with the best intentions.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-swap-boys-spark-guides-revolt-wtcv7xjk5?shareToken=772e2cb2a2f2c493cf7fdcdbc245ab9b

Ah I know! but I don’t think it’s healthy to have rigid same sex organisations.

How’s it unhealthy, wurly?

Also... last thing! It is very clear we do not live in an easy binary female/male world. We should seek to include.

As a society we are moving towards a future where ones gender is much less important.

Think you meant to say '....ONE gender....' - you added an extra 's'.

And I don't like loud music so it should be banned.

We should seek to include.

So you'd be quite happy sharing a shower with your MIL or FIL then? Good for you, how very err modern...

It is very clear we do not live in an easy binary female/male world

Ha! Again, I gotta disagree. It’s nit at ALL clear to me - the divide between women’s issues and male privilege seems pretty binary to me.

I care deeply for Guiding. I was a Rainbow, a Brownie, a Guide, and a Young Leader. I gained the Baden-Powell Trefoil during my time in the organisation.

I'm very happy that Guiding is accepting of trans and gender-nonconforming girls and young women. I assume that in the case of religious objection, which is a valid concern mentioned above, special accommodations could be made, if necessary.

There is no gender binary and young people are increasingly aware of this. This is something that all organisations that are traditionally single-gender will have to adapt to. Scouts took non-males years ago. Guiding is the holdout, and they're finally adapting. Like it or lump it - it's not going away.

I am extremely worried about this policy and I’m not permitting my children to go on camps until it is sorted. My eldest DD was involved in an incident in a public toilet about a year ago whereby a man followed her in and was harassing her, I believe he would have assaulted her if he was not challenged by an older lady who happened upon the situation. She is now understandably funny about using public facilities and mixed changing rooms (at swimming she changes in the ladies loos). This will be extremely uncomfortable for her. I don’t think she’d tolerate it tbh, which would then get her labled as transphobic, not fair at all. This has been a knee jerk reaction that has not been thought through properly.

@wurlycurly GG isn't compulsory. If you want mixed sex there's Scouts, Cadets, Woodcraft Folk...let those who do want a single sex space have it. The demand is there - 70,000 girls on waiting lists across the country at last count. We are crying out for leaders, we can't keep up with demand.

There is no gender binary and young people are increasingly aware of this. This is something that all organisations that are traditionally single-gender will have to adapt to. Scouts took non-males years ago. Guiding is the holdout, and they're finally adapting. Like it or lump it - it's not going away

There may be no gender binary but there is a see binary (for 99% of people).

Scouts took girls - great. Did they tell their leaders not to tell parents that both sexes were present? Did they insist that girls use boys tents, showers, loos and imply the boys were bigots if they didn't accept?

@condepetie

I'm very happy that Guiding is accepting of trans and gender-nonconforming girls and young women. I assume that in the case of religious objection, which is a valid concern mentioned above, special accommodations could be made, if necessary.

I think the point that people are objecting to - not least the OP who has said she’s happy to be inclusive to trans children - is that there’s been no consideration given to what “special accommodations” might be needed in a variety of circumstances. Just that the rules had fundamentally changed with no backup on the hows and whys. Leaders asking for guidance were ignored.

For an organisation run by volunteers, it’s not good enough to leave it to them to set the rules in each individual instance.

GG can change and be inclusive but not at the expense of others.

The thing is, although you're not allowed to comment on an individual's gender identity, won't it be really obvious if a boy arrives, albeit in girl's clothing? Even very feminine boys can't hide their natal sex.

What happens when they change? If they have a penis, it will be obvious in their pants.

So, far worse to have a bland "we can't comment" than an open and healthy discussion on how a sensitive situation should be handled to the benefit of all - both the natal girls and the trans girl.

My dd is about to join guides - I'm absolutely fine with trans girls being involved. I am not fine about her being put in a position of vulnerability because GG don't want to offend a minority.

Surely adolescents at this stage are super self conscious in any case, for the pre-op trans girl who must have gone through a huge mental process to feel they are in a position to live life as a girl, but also for the girls who are going through puberty.

My 10 year old now wants privacy (quite naturally) when getting changed, especially from her dad and 6 year old db. She loves them, she's totally comfortable with them EXCEPT when she feels vulnerable, ie, when she's naked or changing.

Why should this be denied to her.

I despair of this brave new world we seem to be living in. I absolutely embrace everyone's right to identify in a way that makes them happy, but I don't want them to do it at my expense, nor that of my children. Their rights and feelings don't trump mine or anyone else's. We all need consideration.

@OriginalGeordie your poor DD. Sadly this happens far more frequently than we'd care to imagine. It's your daughter I have in mind when I say I won't lie by omission. I will not put girls who've had similar experiences in a position where the speak up, at risk of being labelled and ignored anyway, or who decide it's just less hassle not to come in residentials if GG won't make reasonable adjustments. GG rightly doesn't want us to victimise transkids - but what about girls who've had awful experiences and are relying on their leaders to listen and not make a fuss. It's not that hard to welcome transkids and also provide a guaranteed single sex space, is it?

Condepetie - no gender binary, great. But the organization you remember provided a sex segregated safe space where as a girl, you were free to become whatever you wanted to be, while the social expectations of gender were held at bay. With GG now earnestly swallowing ‘gender’, and not sex, it isn’t possible for today’s girls to have the experience you did. An organization that requires gender non-conforming girls to leave, and that allows gender non-conforming males in, is not an organization that refutes the gender binary. It is an organization that actively promotes it. At the expense of girls and young women.
How can GG continue to provide a space where girls can discuss and question the ramifications of growing up female in our society, and take action for a better world (for girls and women) when they are no longer able to root their experiences in a shared biological fact?

And yet As a society we are moving towards a future where ones gender is much less important.

Absolute nonsense. The transgender ideology makes gender paramount, and sex irrelevant.

Sex is a protected characteristic. The law recognises that women do not have enough political representation, are discouraged from stem subjects, and are subjected to constant conscious and unconscious bias on the basis of their biology. FGM, forced marriage, honour killings, pay parity, 85,000 rapes a year, two women a week killed by men.

Not happening to men, however they identify.

Happening to women, however they identify.

Hence why feminist have campaigned for maternity leave, breastfeeding protocols, equal pay, rape within marriage to be made illegal and sex to be a protected characteristic.

The Internet is awash with evidential studies and statistics should you care to take a look.

The transgender ideology, on the other hand, claims the existence of a lady brain and that sex should be replaced with a set of regressive sex role stereotypes.

It's completely wrong to be a man who displays feminity. You have to identify as a woman to do that. Because that's what women are.

It's dragging us backwards.

@wurlycurly

From the Girl Guiding website summarising the results of surveying members:

"Girlguiding will still be just for girls"

"When we asked girls like you what they’d like, they told us they wanted Girlguiding to still be just for girls. So no boys allowed!"

Bit of a contradiction there then.

Wurly, the only reason scouts became mixed sex (Not gender) is because of a leadership crisis where (probably due to socialization or fear of being accused of paedophilia) not enough male leaders were stepping forward. So they had to take female leaders to ensure the future of scouting. And well, you can’t really have female leaders and disallow girls in. Don’t for a second think that scouting was the vanguard of a gender-free space and brave new world. I’ve been a scouter. I’ve watched while male leaders denigrate anything ‘girly’ and police masculinity. After all, that’s why BP had his sister start guides in the first place, to keep them away from the boys’ organization.
The difference between girls in scouts, and girls in guides is very interesting. Girls in scouts are there to prove they can be equal, and to question the dominance of ‘masculinity’ and prove that girls can do ‘boy’s stuff’ equally well. (All power to their elbow - I did exactly the same thing both in cadets and a career in the military - I have no problem with competing against males who believe they are superior). Girls in guides can do exactly the same activities but are free from the male gaze that judges and evaluated them against masculine markers. The girls are free to experience the activities without pressure and to figure out for themselves who they are, in a safe environment. They can also do so whilst questioning male and female social norms and debunking them as they wish.
There is no benefit to girls for GG to accept males. There may well be a benefit for gender non-confirming males to join GG, but that is absolutely not in the best interests of the girls and young women who are currently members. We may have been set up as a separate organization because of ol’ BP’s misogyny, but in actuality, it has allowed far more girls and young women to be who they want to be, without the pressure of having to perform masculinity to prove oneself equal.
And I speak as a girl called George throughout my teens, who would be in danger of being asked to leave GG in its current form.

But the argument is that transgirls are girls. Just girls with penises.

@Mamaryllis thank you.

Mamaryllis has summed it up for me.

Wow. Some of you really do have some strage issues with 'needing' to keep the 'bepensied' away, don't you.

I despair of this brave new world we seem to be living in. I absolutely embrace everyone's right to identify in a way that makes them happy, but I don't want them to do it at my expense, nor that of my children. Their rights and feelings don't trump mine or anyone else's. We all need consideration.

Exactly. I don't know what the answer is,
but how can it be correct that the 'rights' of the few are more important than the rights of many. Unless you are saying that the male identfying as female is somehow more important than many natural born females... Because that's sure how it looks from here.
Thanks for raising this in the media, op. Hopefully it will make a lot more ppl think carefully about the wider implications of the knee jerk politically correct stance many organizations are taking.

Hometirf, no one here necessarily wants to keep the bepenised away as a general rule. You are seeing things that aren’t there. But we are concerned to preserve the ability of young girls who do (for any number of reasons - pubescent self consciousness, religious reasons, past abuse, any number of reasons) to continue to enjoy guide camps as a single sex space.
Could you explain why you think the feelings and desires of the trans child should trump the feelings and desires of those girls? I assume there must be a reason and the only one I can think of is a belief that chromosomally male persons are more important than the female. But if I’m being unfair, tell me. Explain. I’d love to understand.

"Could you explain why you think the feelings and desires of the trans child should trump the feelings and desires of those girls?"

Because inclusion should always beat exclusion.

See also racism and homophobia.