To tell you about our first (bittersweet) win over the Girlguides transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I posted a thread in AIBU a few weeks ago about the Girlguides transgender policy. I'm on the App so can't link but in summary, the thread discussed the difficulties the policy posed for leaders.

Of particular concern is that transgirls should use the accommodation and bathrooms or the gender they identify as (fine) - but other girls don't get a choice and most importantly parents must not be told if a trans person is present. I see the need for confidentiality but I can also see why parents might object, for example, to their 12 yo daughter sharing a tent with a 14 yo natal male on camp without their knowledge or permission.

Anyway, despite all the letters and emails from me and others begging GGHQ to consult more widely with parents/leaders/girls and give us more practical guidance, none has been forthcoming.

So, I and some others spoke to the Sunday Times. I'm so glad they published - the implications of self ID reach far and wide and need to be properly thought out. But it's sad it had to get to this point. Some of my comments were edited out so I should say here that I love GG, I agonised over doing this and I think GG is making its policies with the best intentions.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-swap-boys-spark-guides-revolt-wtcv7xjk5?shareToken=772e2cb2a2f2c493cf7fdcdbc245ab9b

are we seriously going to back to girls must like pink, wear dresses, have long hair etc? What if they don't? Are those girls actually trans boys?

This is exactly the opposite of what GG stands for and you know it.

@AgnesBadenPowell I meant the changing the age range rather than the name, I'd say changing the upper age from 25 to 18 affects a lot more young women than this will, as does the entire new program. Guiding is changing.

Good on you OP!

The difference there is that girls are admitted as girls and treated as girls and having separate accommodation and facilities.
Here we are talking about boys who identify as girls being treated as girls, sharing sleeping quarters with girls, showers with girls, toilets with girls despite having a working penis

Scouting guidelines are that young people are encouraged to use the facilities for the gender they identify with, there is no rule stating that accommodation be separated by gender anyway and it is not unknown for boys and girls to share accommodation on camp. Scouts have been allowing young people of any gender to share accommodation for years.

@RainbowGlitterFairy yes the change in age range is a big concern. Not all members ages 18-25 want to be in a leadership position and the trefoil guild is probably not for them yet.

But I stand by my point - GG is changing the very definition of what a girl is. That's the most fundamental change GG could make (aside from becoming mixed) and it affects all sections. I don't identify as a woman, I just am one. Should I leave GG on that basis? It's nonsense and potentially harmful so, no I'm not prepared to accept this as just "evolution" of the movement

Out of curiosity how many TG guiders have posters actually come across in RL ?

are we seriously going to back to girls must like pink, wear dresses, have long hair etc? What if they don't? Are those girls actually trans boys?
This is exactly the opposite of what GG stands for and you know it.

It used to be the opposite of what GG stood for but with its trans policy, GG now has a logical fallacy at its centre. It has put identity before reality; gender before sex . . .Its entire ethos was based on challenging gender stereotypes but how can they do that when so much of trans discourse relies upon them?

@Terfragette69 yes that is ok with me. We are talking about a group of children sharing a room/tent, if DD were uncomfortable about a particular boy that would be different, same as if she felt uncomfortable sharing with a particular girl but having a penis does not make a child a risk.

Scouts have been allowing young people of any gender to share accommodation for years.

Do Scouts discuss and agree the accommodation arrangements with young people first? Are parents informed and consent obtained? If so, no problem.

GG doesn't allow discussion and it doesn't allow parents to be informed. Partly because it views boys who ID as girls as actual girls - regardless of their biology - so they would say the accommodation isn't mixed sex anyway (although of course that's exactly what it is)

@AgnesBadenPowell to be fair, I don't think it would be the end of the world if GG became mixed, which is maybe why this is bothering me less.

Well done OP!

Do Scouts discuss and agree the accommodation arrangements with young people first? Are parents informed and consent obtained?

Yes and no, yes everyone is informed if its a case of different genders sharing but they are not necessarily informed of everyones biological sex.

@RainbowGlitterFairy the thing is, lots of other people want GG to stay female only. It's only us and Girls Brigade I think, I don't know of any other girl only organisations (so not the WI as that's adults).

And I know I keep saying this but this isn't about boys being present - it's GG changing the definition of girl, lying to parents by omission, disregarding the rights of girls to have a space without boys, even when washing or sleeping, if they want it.

Do you know what GG now tells its leaders? That a girl who likes traditionally Male things, like rugby, is not necessarily transgender. Is that sort of language we want to use about young women? Question gender every time a girl falls outside of the pink sparkly box?

Do you know what GG now tells its leaders? That a girl who likes traditionally Male things, like rugby, is not necessarily transgender. Is that sort of language we want to use about young women? Question gender every time a girl falls outside of the pink sparkly box?

I have literally never heard anyone in guiding say that ever in the 25 years I have been involved. My experience is it's very much "Girls can..."

Has anyone come across anyone born a boy trying to join or joining Guides yet?

Would individual leaders have scope to come up with local policy when it comes to camps for example have trans girls in a separate tent/ room etc? Sorry if that's been covered already.

By and large, I found the comments on that article sensible and encouraging. Well done, AgnesBP

@RainbowGlitterFairy neither have I. But go to the gender pages of the GGUK website and look at the leaders guidance notes - that very sentence is in there.

I was also shocked - I'd never heard anything like that in all my years of guiding either. I can't believe it's now felt somehow necessary to remind leaders that just because someone expresses themselves in a way that correlates with the stereotypes associated with the other sex, doesn't mean they are transgender.

https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/programme-and-activities/letstalkaboutgender_leaders.pdf

To the parents saying they wouldn't mind their daughters sharing with boys - what would your daughters think? Particularly the ones moving into puberty, and getting more shy about their bodies?
My daughter has just recently come back from a school trip, where she had to share a small room with 5 other girls. One girl started her first period whilst they were there. The other girls all rallied round to help her.
I seriously doubt the girl in question would have wanted to share that experience with a boy, no matter how much he felt he was a girl - he isn't!

I am a Guide and Ranger leader. At the moment when we take our girls to mixed jamborees we tell them that they are welcome to bring boys back to the mess tent (where an adult will be present) but under no circumstances must they be in a sleeping tent with a boy. We do a general 'will your parents let you do this again if you go home pregnant?' talk to try and mitigate the chances of this happening.

We are not allowed to tell anyone if a TIM joins the unit therefore do we need to have this talk at every single guide camp from now on so that it isn't obvious if we suddenly start doing it after a new (TIM) member joins?

@NerrSnerr I knew a trans child in 1996 who wanted to join Brownies. Parent asked the leaders who asked HQ, HQ said no and she joined the local cubs instead and was treated as a girl. Not come across any others since.

Yes and no, yes everyone is informed if its a case of different genders sharing but they are not necessarily informed of everyones biological sex.

But not everyone wants to (or wants their child to) share with a member of the opposite sex. I don't want to deal with a heavy period, stained clothes, leaks etc in a tent with a man, no matter how nice he is or how much I trust them. I don't really want to have to deal with it with other women around but most will have experienced similar at least. Why are you so against either sex having a choice as to who they share with?

Being trans is nothing to be ashamed of - if it's handled sensitively, with acceptance and agreement with the young person and their parents, is there any reason why other kids shouldn't be aware that they have a peer who is now a different gender to the one they born in? You can have a general discussion about who wants to be in each tent with everyone expressing their preferences - most will just want to be with their friends.

AgnesBadenPowell

The unequivocal message of "pink for girls, and blue for boys" is the very essence of what the Transgender lobby are pushing though, isn't it. Look at this from Mermaids:

Children are known to be aware of their gender from the age of 4 or 5, others even before that age may reach instinctively for the toys of the opposite gender. Sometimes someone who is gender variant may not have been aware of their issues from an early age. They may feel that they do not quite fit in with their peers, but may not yet realise why, until some years later.

Well done op. Thank you for bringing this to the attention of the press and for all of your posts on Mumsnet about this.

That "Let's talk about gender" pdf you shared is shockingly awful. I really do feel like we have collectively gone backwards in society in how we view the sexes.

The safeguarding is so important especially as not all children report sexual assault. Asking for proof and figures is pointless, women never mind children keep it secret. I know my mother never knew I was sexually assaulted as a child and have met numerous women with similar experiences.