Changing rooms - who was unreasonable?

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Not the 90s decorating programme, but a question about boys in female changing rooms.

My 7 year old nephew regularly goes to swimming lessons, my Dad (his GF) usually takes him but the other week my Mum (GM) did instead. After swimming, mum took nephew to the female changing rooms as there are no family/unisex ones. He was having a quick shower post swim, mum was just round the corner getting his towel and clothes and heard a woman telling him off, asking why was he there (to which he replied 'Grandma told me to!') and that he was 'a naughty little boy' to be in the girl's changing rooms. My mum went straight back and got a mouthful off the woman, who was going on about how inappropriate it was.

My mum was angry that the woman had upset my nephew, rather than taking it up with her first. However, she felt bad about him using the girl's shower. She has decided that at the moment she will continue to use the cubicles in the girl's changing rooms if it's just her but will not get nephew to have a shower.

So who is being unreasonable here? Personally I think it's the leisure centre - for not having a family changing room/shower but I also feel that the woman was being a bit oversensitive, especially when considering that my nephew looks really young for his age (often gets mistaken for a 5 year old).

@Hairyfairy01 - what is the 7 year old boy meant to do? Cease to exist so he doesn't make your daughter uncomfortable as she becomes more aware of her own body? What on earth makes you think he would be looking at your daughter's 'private areas', let alone touching them? I'm sure your DD could get changed discretely, as most people do, if she is feeling self conscious.

It's so sad the amount of people on here talking about a male child as though he must be some sort of sexual voyeur. Stop sexualising children, FFS, it's just wrong.

If you strip off in an open changing room, I think you pretty much consent to being looked at. That's not the same as being stared at, but you accept someone will see you naked, and possibly quite intimately albeit for a moment or two.

So if you're 8 or 80, the same applies, if you don't want your body to be seen, then a public open changing room isn't for you.
Then comes the issue of sex - what most people are most uncomfortable with is a member of the opposite sex seeing them naked, and that's where the problem lies when a child of the opposite sex comes to the fore.

There are two aspects to this:

1. The child is likely to have a natural curiosity about the body of an adult because they've rarely seen a naked adult. So a young boy would stare at an adult nude male, or young girl would stare at an adult woman too, It's not sexual, simply body curiosity. So does it matter if it's a young boy or a young girl?

2. If you have both a young girl and a young boy in the same space (not siblings), then I can see a potential issue where both could feel particularly conscious of each other. I don't know how that could be addressed easily.

3. Once a child reaches a certain age and becomes sexually aware, the bodily curiosity is no longer innocent, it's sexual. At that point it's inappropriate to be in a dressing room with the opposite sex. However, this completely glosses over homosexual feelings. You can be a grown man or woman, naked in the appropriate dressing room and someone in that room could have sexual thoughts about you. That's the risk you take if you get naked in front of others.

• three aspects

I never said the boy would be thinking / touching. My point is that girls (and boys) are taught very early on these days about their body being private and not to do anything they are uncomfortable with etc, and quite rightly so. So if my dd is uncomfortable what is she meant to do? Give up swimming? It’s like we are telling them one thing, yet in reality expecting them to do another.

Yes I agree, but she's undressing in front of other women, so the difference has to be the boys age and/or his gender, otherwise what's the difference between him and the other women in the room?

I don't disagree with you - it's why I said when it's two opposite sex children, it's a problem - boys and girls are highly conscious of their peers, more so than adults in many ways. I don't know what the answer is. It can't be right that she should have to give up attending, but at the same time, can you expect a single mother to send her young boy into a male changing room?
The best option's got to be more cubicles.

As the mum of two boys, the oldest of whom is 5 would I really be expected to send the big one to the mens whilst I deal with his baby bro of 10 months? bonkers surely? if they are pre puberty and in need of assistance then surely that is fine. Once they are old enough to start taking an interest of who is naked around them and therefore taking care of themselves then yes I totally understand separating them but really there is no need for a strip shower at the pool, surely a wash over your swim suit is perfectly suitable for all but babies with their very sensitive skin and then a proper wash in the evening at home. if people start objecting to naked babies then we are in real trouble!

Hairyfairy01

Shes meant to get changed in a cubicle or under a towel.
Its not your dd's fault if she feels uncomfortable but its certainly not the little boys fault either, at the end of the day that is yours and her problem to have to solve not the boys.

It's nothing to do with sexual issues. Not imo anyway. There is natural curiosity obviously. And there is natural insecurity and embarrassment or just consciousness around developing bodies. It's normal and no one's fault

I get that some kids may need help getting changed BUT- they have to do it at school so at some point you have to let them get on with it.

I get that there's a maturity thing- BUT- we do have to do our vest to teach kids otherwise as at some point they have to learn how to behave in certain situations and we can't exoevt people to put themselves out to accommodate someone else's decision to not instill correct behaviour

I get the worry about predators.BUT- statistically a predator is most likely known to the victim over some stranger in a changing room. And 2 women a week are murdered by their male partners so any argument that a child is safer the day of their 8th birthday than they were 24 hours earlier in sorry but that makes no sense.

What I am behind is better and more inclusive facilities for all so these situations don't come up.

And the changing room should be safe for all

I don't believe a 7 or 8 year old is sexual predator. But please don't ignore girls either. They can't honestly be accused of being the ones in the wrong when it's then in the right place doing what's expected.

The young bit isn't in the wrong either but the reasons you don't want them in the men's don't go away so instead of telling girls they are pathetic it's perhaps better to raise concerns with the venue itself over poor facilities

Imagine if a Dad sent his 8 year old daughter to change in the girls while he went to the men's, and there was a bloke in the girls with his penis out, maybe just walking around naked. Maybe she'd be in there alone with him. What a dreadful thing to happen to a child.

Imagine if a Dad sent his 8 year old daughter to change in the girls while he went to the men's, and there was a bloke in the girls with his penis out, maybe just walking around naked. Maybe she'd be in there alone with him. What a dreadful thing to happen to a child.

A bit confusing this post, but I can assure you if an 8 year old girl was in the men's with her father, men would avoid her like the plague and do everything to avoid being seen naked (such is the fear of any accusation).

However most men would have a tonne of sympathy for a single dad in that situation and wouldn't complain either.

Contrary to popular opinion, men's changing rooms are not actually full of predators or sexual deviants. We accept that the majority of such ARE men, but it's still a tiny percentage. The sad truth is that men are now so scared to actually help a child, the entire experience is uncomfortable for all and that's truly sad.

Pratchet I don't think anyone who has commented on this thread would think that wasn't dreadful. How are you relating this scenario to the OP or the thread?

Posters on here are in for a real shock as the impact of Swim England's new guidelines comes into play allowing for any self ID person to use the changing rooms of their choice. 7 / 8 year olds will be the least of your worries.
The guidelines are very clear about the rights of someone with full male genitalia to use women's changing rooms / showers as they wish - no restrictions about being naked in front of 7 year old children, 12 year olds or adult women. It will be fine in those changing rooms with plenty of private cubicles and showers but as evidenced on this thread, lots of us don't have access to these.

It's not transphobic to point this out - it's the new reality that women and children's rights to privacy and dignity no longer matter.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3176098-I-am-about-to-ID-as-a-man

Even more reason for them to be able to learn to change on their own in the men's isn't it? After all it's going to be the safest place left

Our local pool has a play/splash pool and a lane/competition pool with the changing area in between. It’s all very open but with enough cubicles for everyone to change in private. It has communal showers for showering while still in swimwear, and private showers big enough for a family for more personal washing and family changing. Works very well.

As delusionsrus has pointed out, for premises where they have traditional male and female facilities, trans people are deemed to be allowed access to whichever changing room they feel most comfortable with, regardless of what stage of transition they are at. So a woman with breasts and a vagina can enter the male rooms and a man with a penis can enter the female rooms - the presence of children is irrelevant.

What, Giles, even more important for the girls to learn to change on their own in the men's? I'm talking about a girl on her own in the girls, except for a bloke walking around naked.

The OP on this thread is in the right. But so is the poster above who says it's a minor problem compared to what's on the way. I wonder if the other woman would be as quite tonwuestion a sex foot bloke in a bikini. I hope so, but then she could be chucked out and cautioned for a hate crime.

It was Delusions, excuse me I forgot

In fairness to most genuine transwomen, I suspect most would hide their penis and not be flaunting it, but there's a real concern about brazen opportunists just pretending to be transwomen.

Regardless, however discreet, there is now a seeming 'right' for someone with a penis to be in a female changing area and that poses a risk of women or girls being exposed to that penis.
According to Swim England, objections to that will be treated with 'zero tolerance'.

Just to clarify - the issue isn't about transgender people who I am sure will be equally thoughtful and respectful about sharing changing rooms / nudity. The issue is about self identification and Swim England's guidelines include this - so all the perverted ones currently filming, upskirting, stalking and being invasive towards women and children will simply be able to claim that they self identify as women and voila - they have access to women's changing rooms, showers etc. and there is nothing that anyone can do to stop them.

Most trans identified males keep their penis. Like, 80 to 90 per cent. Hence the many 'if you don't think I'm a woman you can choke on my girl cock' comments. These are the ones campaigning vocally for access.

It will make all the worries about 7 & 8 years olds seem completely trivial. But we apparently have no say in this as Swim England have introduced this already.

Too right delusions, nothing. You'd be thrown out yourself. Indecent exposure and voyeurism is effectively no longer illegal in a swim change.

ook at it this way then, would any of you be happy with your 7 year old daughter showering in front of men in the men's changing room with her father? No and I suspect many men would be uncomfortable with that. This is no different.

Er no since the statistics say men are highly more likely to be peadophiles. You could try read around this subject if it interests you.

Just to clarify less than 2% of people on the sex offenders are women.. so yes I consider male changing areas more dangerous for children than female changing rooms

Thankfully ours has unisex cubicles and showers are communal with some individual cubicles. My DS is 7.5 and would be very uncomfortable getting changed in front of girls his age. I doubt I would be comfortable with letting him go and get changed in mens on his own and sort out his own locker etc. But thankfully dont have this decision to make. There should be cubicles available regardless of whether they are gendered or mixed changing rooms and the cut off should be more like 9 or 10 with the proviso that cubicles are available.