Changing rooms - who was unreasonable?

[Loobyloomicles]

Not the 90s decorating programme, but a question about boys in female changing rooms.

My 7 year old nephew regularly goes to swimming lessons, my Dad (his GF) usually takes him but the other week my Mum (GM) did instead. After swimming, mum took nephew to the female changing rooms as there are no family/unisex ones. He was having a quick shower post swim, mum was just round the corner getting his towel and clothes and heard a woman telling him off, asking why was he there (to which he replied 'Grandma told me to!') and that he was 'a naughty little boy' to be in the girl's changing rooms. My mum went straight back and got a mouthful off the woman, who was going on about how inappropriate it was.

My mum was angry that the woman had upset my nephew, rather than taking it up with her first. However, she felt bad about him using the girl's shower. She has decided that at the moment she will continue to use the cubicles in the girl's changing rooms if it's just her but will not get nephew to have a shower.

So who is being unreasonable here? Personally I think it's the leisure centre - for not having a family changing room/shower but I also feel that the woman was being a bit oversensitive, especially when considering that my nephew looks really young for his age (often gets mistaken for a 5 year old).

For those not comfortable with having their body looked at, don't join a gym or a swimming pool that doesn't offer private cubicles. If know it's open changing, then you've accepted that your body will be seen.
I do accept that being seen isn't the same as being stared at, but the curiosity of a child is what it is. A child might just as easily stare at you in a restaurant for some reason, should they be banned from the restaurant too?

It seems that 7/8 is now deemed as the point at which a child starts to lose their innocence and their 'curiosity' MIGHT become sexual. It's still only a 'might', but if those rules are in place and clearly stated, then nobody can complain after the fact that a permissible child was present in their area.

Children with specific special needs is a trickier issue, as someone aged (say) 9 might need very specific help. I don't know the answer to this, but I'd like to think most reasonable adults could manage to accommodate the presence of such a child, or wait a few minutes to avoid getting naked etc.

As I've mentioned I think everybody who has responded agrees that they would be uncomfortable with sending a 7yo boy into the men's changing room alone. I find it really disappointing that when people say they are uncomfortable with school age boys being in the same changing room a good number of people on here disregard and ridicule their feelings and views.

Also, some of the arguments against people wishing to choose who they undress in front of are ridiculous. Being stared at in a restaurant is somewhat different from being stared at when you are naked or semi dressed. If a child is there before you, yes you could wait until they leave before you undress, but what if you're already naked when they come into the changing room? Also, even when there is a clear cut off age people like Greenyogagirl are quite happy to disregard these rules and think because it suits them and it doesn't bother them, then everybody else should be okay with it too.

I think the best response would be for people with young children who need help changing to support the idea that better changing facilities are needed. Not that anybody who has a problem with opposite sex children sharing their changing room should just jog on.

Girls stare at naked female bodies as much, if not more than, boys in the changing room. Are we suggesting all 'staring children' should be removed for fear of offending any naked adults?! Or that for a 7 year old BOY it must be sexual, but for a 7 year old GIRL it must not be?

I'm 7 months pregnant and have a 3 year old who is a squirmer when getting dressed. I try my best to be discrete but it's very difficult to keep a towel wrapped round you when you are dressing a young child. Trust me, EVERYONE stares at a pregnant naked woman. I just get on with it. Agree with the PPs who say be as discrete as possible and get out of there pronto if being looked at naked makes you uncomfortable.

Not disregard because it suits me but my child needs my help, why should my disabled child miss out because you’re self conscious?

I absolutely agree that there is no difference in a 7yr old boy or a 7yr old girl staring or making comments about others nakedness. In neither case would the motivation be sexual it would be curiosity and childishness. I would hope that the parents who are with the children would discourage children of either sex from doing it. The only way you could stop it would be to ban children from changing rooms. But it would probably be easier and fairer for those offended by staring to attend a pool with cubicles or an adult only gym.

I don’t like being publicly naked so use a large towel for communal changing so that’s another option. Undress your top half facing the wall, put the towel round you then remove bottom half of clothes and step into costume and pull up facing the wall. Job done.

@ShotsFired do you realise that Swim England have given advice that anyone who says they are female is to be allowed in the female changing rooms and that you are not entitiled to complain if a bepenised person claiming to be a woman is in there? 7 years olds will seem tame in comparison.

however, yes I can see you need to have you 7 year old with anadult, but also some people will feel uncomfortable with that, and that is fine. you are about to lose the ability to complain about it though.

more cubicles would be the answer.

More cubicles usually isn't possible though. My gym/pool is a small old one, there is no room for cubicles. It is how it is and if people don't like it they can choose another one.
What they can't do is whine about my little boys being in a changing room they have paid to be in and are following the rules for.

Greenyogagirl I didn't realise your child was disabled. Having a disabled child is a significant difference from the OP's given situation. However, I would think that you should still support the idea of more suitable changing areas being made available. For instance, some disabled people may need a changing room with a hoist in order to make changing possible. Surely you think offering suitable facilities for all is a good idea?

I wouldn't like to be stared at by anyone, but personally having someone of the opposite sex doing the staring is worse and I'm sure others agree. Parents should obviously supervise their children to avoid this as far as possible. In the OP the boy was told to go into the shower area without his accompanying adult, I can see why some people wouldn't like this, although I think the woman's response was harsh.

I think individual unisex changing cubicles would be the answer for transsexuals too.

More cubicles is only part of the answer, unless they lead straight to the lockers and pool, without having to go back into the main changing area.

There should definitely be more changing rooms, I think male, female and unisex would be all it takes but until then I don’t think a child going in the changing rooms with their mum is a bad thing. Chances are the mum told son to go in shower and went to get their stuff from the locker etc he might have needed extra help in drying/getting dressed we don’t know.

Being stared at in a restaurant is somewhat different from being stared at when you are naked or semi dressed.

Yes it's different, but not if you're discussing the motivations of an asexual minor. It's a very different matter if a child is staring out of sexual curiosity - which is why an age limit applies (presumably the generally agreed point at which sexual motivation might be a factor).

Also, if the rules say mixed sex children up to 8 yrs are permitted, then surely the onus is on the adult not to join that gym / swimming room if they disagree with those rules. They can't complain after the fact, surely?

On the disabled / special needs (but over age) issue - I can see both sides. Just because a child has special needs, it should not give them free reign to breach an age limit, but at the same time, a mother with a special needs boy cannot be expected to enter the men's room either. She's stuck between a rock and a hard place there. I guess the ideal solution would be to find a location that suited her and her boy's needs, but I suspect such places are very few and far between.

The other alternative is a unisex changing room / special area where a mother could look after her boy, or father could look after his daughter. Most likely a unisex room with extra wide cubicles etc. But that's a perfect world scenario and expensive to accommodate. Meanwhile real mothers and fathers with special need opposite sex children are going to be left in the lurch.

Personally I've not said anything about sexual motivations.

What if there isn't another gym or pool within travelling distance, should people miss out because a gym or pool won't install some individual cubicles? Because my argument is for changing areas that would accommodate everybody, I'm not talking about excluding anyone.

Also, we're possibly forgetting that in the OP the scenario was that the boy had been sent to the showers without his accompanying adult. Is it too much to ask that people supervise their children to avoid any 'undesirable' situations, or is supervision not part of the rules?

I would say that a facility that wants to succeed in the future should try to accommodate those with special needs where they can reduce or eliminate the gender issue with cubicles, but some others might argue that it's not good business sense to spend on such cubicles and waste the associated floor space for a small number of clients (sounds harsh, but that's the bottom line in cash terms).

Maybe the alternative would be to offer special times of day for such people, but it would still be a cost issue to allocate a specific time IF it was going to cost the business money.

From a male perspective I think it's a big issue for us too, but for different reasons. We are made to feel like potential predators, and so a young girl (or slightly older girl with special needs) in a male room would likely make us feel uncomfortable - not for being oggled at (because that's not a typical female trait), but for fear of being accused of exposing ourselves unnecessarily or worse.

However, I'm pretty sure if a man brought in a young girl (say 9) into a changing room and explained his circumstances, the men would give him a load of space and wear towels as much as possible. Someone would be considered a complete idiot if they objected and would be castigated by the others.

I don't much like the thought of parents and children in this circumstance being shoved into some disabled loo or anything though either. A young boy with problems getting dressed is still a young boy and in a perfect world should be entirely welcome to change with other young boys and men. It's not his fault he's with a single mother and it's not her fault she can't come into the men's.

I feel frustrated just typing about it - and I'm not the one having to actually live with the situation!

At DD's swimming lessons there is a male changing room and a female changing room. No way to get to the poolside without going through one of them. They say that 8 and under can go into the other changing room, but 9yo shouldn't. DD is 8. She has a physical disability. She can change alone, but there is an issue walking on the wet floors as she is far more likely to slip. I have talked over the rule with the chap who runs the lessons. He is happy to make an exception for her if DH has to take her on his own, but I feel it actually becomes a bit inappropriate no matter whether she has a disability. So we have agreed that, should the need arise, she will get changed in the disable toilet outside both changing rooms, stand inside the ladies room, and DH will go to the poolside through the gents and ask a female swimming teacher to walk her through the changing room.

Can't believe some of the responses on here! I have a DS & DD and definitely wouldn't have been happy putting them in a changing room on their own at 7 yo. We all have bodies & need to get over yourself if you think a 7yo boy/girl is that interested in what you look like! Maybe we all need to be a bit more comfortable with our own bodies & stop worrying about children staring ffs.

a mother with a special needs boy cannot be expected to enter the men's room

That should be "cannot be allowed". There are many places from which men wrongly exclude women but a male changing room is not one of them.

This trans issue is going to end in litigation and the sooner - and with a result which accords with common sense - the better.

The woman. Of course you wouldn't send a 7 year old into an all male changing room on his own. Woman was totally unreasonable not as if females were going about naked (hopefully) and nephew would have his swimming gear on whilst showering. Hope he recovers from that awful woman.

The woman shouldn't have told him off but I think he is old enough at 7 to be in the male changing room by himself

I only have girls but if I has a son I wouldn't be sending him off on his own onto the males aged 7! So glad we only have unisex or family rooms at our local pools. I would be furious if DH sent my 7 and 9 year olds to get changed alone. I engurage my DD's talk to strangers, they play out and go to friends houses.

We travel 40 miles to go swimming because none of the nearer pools have what ds needs.

The woman shouldn't have told him off but I think he is old enough at 7 to be in the male changing room by himself

You're not his mother so thats not your call.

The woman was being unreasonable, she had no business shouting at your nephew. However, your DM was not actually supervising him was she? Had she been with him in the shower area she could have headed off any problem before it began.
Agree with all previous poster that we need pools with unisex changing rooms with cubicles of different sizes.

My dd is coming of an age, rightly or wrongly, of being body conscious. She’s very aware that no one has the right to look / touch her private areas. So when a 7/8 year old boy is in the female changing rooms, normally awaiting his mum to sort out a younger sibling, what is my dd meant to do? Strip off anyway despite being uncomfortable?