Changing rooms - who was unreasonable?

[Loobyloomicles]

Not the 90s decorating programme, but a question about boys in female changing rooms.

My 7 year old nephew regularly goes to swimming lessons, my Dad (his GF) usually takes him but the other week my Mum (GM) did instead. After swimming, mum took nephew to the female changing rooms as there are no family/unisex ones. He was having a quick shower post swim, mum was just round the corner getting his towel and clothes and heard a woman telling him off, asking why was he there (to which he replied 'Grandma told me to!') and that he was 'a naughty little boy' to be in the girl's changing rooms. My mum went straight back and got a mouthful off the woman, who was going on about how inappropriate it was.

My mum was angry that the woman had upset my nephew, rather than taking it up with her first. However, she felt bad about him using the girl's shower. She has decided that at the moment she will continue to use the cubicles in the girl's changing rooms if it's just her but will not get nephew to have a shower.

So who is being unreasonable here? Personally I think it's the leisure centre - for not having a family changing room/shower but I also feel that the woman was being a bit oversensitive, especially when considering that my nephew looks really young for his age (often gets mistaken for a 5 year old).

KittyMcKitty

OP He was having a quick shower post swim, mum was just round the corner getting his towel and clothes

He is allowed in there if he is under 8, thats the rule not that hes allowed in there as long as the guardian doesnt let her eyes drift of him for more than a second. He doesnt need anymore supervison than a 7 year old girl. His grandmother was there and was getting his towel and knew he was in the shower.
He was having a quick shower post swim, mum was just round the corner getting his towel and clothes

It's communal is as much as it 'open' for all women (and children of both sexes). IF it's not open to children of both sexes, then you're correct, nobody should have to accept the presence of a boy, but if it IS open to children of either sex, then there can be no complaints and the boy has every right to be there).

Most pools allow children on both sexes because of the practicalities of one parent dealing with a child or children.

Tbh if he was deemed not able to go into a changing area without an adult then he needs supervision - if he’s fine to have shower etc without adult supervision then he should be in the male changing rooms.

Why should women and girls in the FEMALE changing rooms be expected to modify their behaviour to accommodate a male?

She was definitely unreasonable. It's not as though people get undressed to use the showers - no more privacy required there than a few feet away in the actual pool.

Even if there were actual rules stating he shouldn't have been in there, she should have asked a member of staff or your mum to deal with it instead of speaking to him the way she did.

Why should women and girls in the FEMALE changing rooms be expected to modify their behaviour to accommodate a male?

Because they read the rules and accepted that male children also have access. It's not a FEMALE only area, it's a nominally female area.
What if her boy had been 2, or 3? what age would you be ok with it?
The designated upper age was 8, and that's what parents agreed to, so what's the problem?

Turn it around and imagine a man taking his daughter swimming. In this scenario (one I faced many time and see other dads facing), boys and men actively DO change their behaviour specifically to accommodate a young girl - it's not required, but they do so out of courtesy and every dad knows the other men are doing it to avoid any embarrassment.
It was an innocent young boy, not a man. Is it really so difficult to get dry and dressed without a huge fuss over him?

Thank you TheBrilliantMistake for explaining to women and girls how best we should accommodate males - thank goodness we have a male to tell us how we should behave

I'm not telling women and girls how to behave I'm telling people who have read the rules of a changing room to either accept those rules, or not.
I am repeating what others have said. My sex is irrelevant to this, but the same applies in a men's changing room too. This is an issue that men have to face with daughters too you know.

Standing still under running water is very different from getting yourself dry and dressed kitty

Standing still under running water is very different from getting yourself dry and dressed kitty was this aimed at me @Greenyogagirl? I’m confused

You said if he’s fine to use the shower on his own he should be in the make changing rooms

@KittyMcKitty you have issues. Why so defensive?
Grown ass women should adjust their behaviour to accommodate a fucking child. They’re a child. Regardless of Gender. Their needs to a safe environment to change in (in this case safe would be defined as an area where he can be supervised) should trump a grown woman’s. You’re an adult, you’re not in competition with a child, he poses no threat to you, get a bloody grip.

Grown ass women should adjust their behaviour to accommodate a fucking child. They’re a child. Regardless of Gender. Their needs to a safe environment to change in (in this case safe would be defined as an area where he can be supervised) should trump a grown woman’s. You’re an adult, you’re not in competition with a child, he poses no threat to you, get a bloody grip.

Thankyou! Finally someone has just said it how it is

I wonder what this woman does when on holiday and children are by the pool in their swimming costumes/getting changed/showering etc.
It's a sad, sad world when a small child is told off for having a showe post swim.

Salient and relevant points are what wins an argument, not attacking people. Attacking people just makes you look bad and intolerant to the fact that other people have different views and, in this case, boundaries to you. Also, being obtuse and picking and choosing parts of what people said doesn't win an argument either.

This is an issue that men have to face with daughters too you know

I don't think its quite the same issue.

Why should women and girls in the FEMALE changing rooms be expected to modify their behaviour to accommodate a male?

Because the male is a young CHILD.

he just needs to say "how very dare you, I AM A WOMAN!" and you will have to take his word for it, beard and all

Or , if a reductio ad absurdum is your thing, you could have law the other way, and have a big hairy lumberjack in there, with a beard down to his belly-button and tackle down to his knees, because his birth certificate says he's a woman, so he's not allowed in the men's changing room.

I’ve got a 7 yr old boy! They can’t be simultaneously too immature to behave appropriately in the ladies changing room and fine to change in their own in the mens

I've had 2 - I'd say that they are quite capable of that myself, but I do get your point.

the sooner - and with a result which accords with common sense - the better

I doubt that you're alone in that hope, but ask 5 people what that common sense solution should be, and you'll get 5 completely different answers.

so all the perverted ones currently filming, upskirting, stalking and being invasive towards women and children will simply be able to claim that they self identify as women and voila

Don't be silly: a someone engaging in appropriate and invasive behaviour would be kicked out - probably into the hands of the police - whatever room they use or genitalia they have.

Brotherphil: in that case all people with penises can change in the men's safe in the knowledge that anyone engaging in inappropriate and invasive behaviour will be kicked out.

Pratchet: I would hope that there would be common sense and consideration whatever the situation, but we are dealing with human beings, after all.
My understanding is that a pre-op trans woman would be likely to be rather on the shy side about the fact that she still had a penis, and quite unlikely to be waving it in people's faces - she would be more likely to use a cubicle. She would, however, be extremely uncomfortable - if she was brave enough to go swimming in the first place.
On the other hand, if we had the sort of "bathroom laws" that some have been pushing in the States, then a post-op trans man would still be required to use the women's changing room, with his penis, and a post-op trans woman would have go into the mens to change from her dress into her swimsuit.
The myth of men claiming to be trans in order to see or expose themselves to women is just that - a myth. Given that most people tend to presume that others are more or less like themselves, I suspect that it says something about the men in the US who claim that they need to patrol women's toilets to make sure that only "real" women use them.

Brother, there's no evidence for your understanding. Around 90% of female-identified men keep their penises and the vast amount of ladypeen talk (and pics) suggests they aren't shy about. Predators would never be shy about. TW should stay in the men's. As you say, any inappropriate behaviour there will be dealt with.

Once upon a time I would have said at 7 he is fine to go in female changing room if needs be but frim recent experience with having a 12 year old DD I'm firmly the other way. DD was having weekly swim lessons, she is very well developed and not body conscious at all, until a boy of about 7/8 started lessons and his mum would always bring him into female changing, not to assist him in drying/dressing etc...he was more thsn capable, but she just came in there with him to gossip with other mums. He would just stand and stare at my DD, literally taking all of her in, she became very embarrassed, didn't want me to say anything as felt awkward so she took to changing in the female toilets that were less than pleasant by the evening.

Forgot to say I do think the other mum in your post OP was bang out of order for taking her issue out on your DN, she should have calmly approached your mum.