Changing rooms - who was unreasonable?

[Loobyloomicles]

Not the 90s decorating programme, but a question about boys in female changing rooms.

My 7 year old nephew regularly goes to swimming lessons, my Dad (his GF) usually takes him but the other week my Mum (GM) did instead. After swimming, mum took nephew to the female changing rooms as there are no family/unisex ones. He was having a quick shower post swim, mum was just round the corner getting his towel and clothes and heard a woman telling him off, asking why was he there (to which he replied 'Grandma told me to!') and that he was 'a naughty little boy' to be in the girl's changing rooms. My mum went straight back and got a mouthful off the woman, who was going on about how inappropriate it was.

My mum was angry that the woman had upset my nephew, rather than taking it up with her first. However, she felt bad about him using the girl's shower. She has decided that at the moment she will continue to use the cubicles in the girl's changing rooms if it's just her but will not get nephew to have a shower.

So who is being unreasonable here? Personally I think it's the leisure centre - for not having a family changing room/shower but I also feel that the woman was being a bit oversensitive, especially when considering that my nephew looks really young for his age (often gets mistaken for a 5 year old).

we shouldn't teach people to fear male bodies? Stop gaslighting. What we shouldn't teach children is that their boundaries and their consent don't matter

Just because you have boundaries it doesn't mean you don't have body confidence. My boyfriend recently complimented me on my body confidence, however, I am one of the people who are saying they want as much privacy as possible when changing to go to the gym or pool. Simply put, I like to choose who gets to see my naked and I don't think I need to defend or explain why, my body my choice.

Young people, in particular girls, are told to say no to situations they are uncomfortable with, but some on here are suggesting we tell them just to get on with it in the changing room no matter who is about. I think this is a mixed message.

Parents are allowed to bring children up to the cut off age into the opposite sex changing rooms to safeguard them and help them get changed. The lack of family changing areas has been resolved, which is good, but it is at the expense of some of the other people in the changing room who are not comfortable changing around school age children of the opposite sex. I think it would be nice if parents acknowledge this is the case.

I'd love to hear a transsexual's views on the changing room situation. This is a very difficult situation as I'm for equal rights, but in this situation allowing people to self ID and then use whatever changing room they prefer seems to infringe on the privacy of others. This is a scenario where a minority group is being given new rights that actually supersede the rights of the majority, is that fair to say? Unlike the situation with opposite sex children, there are clearly substantial safe guarding issues for the other people in the changing room. I'm embarrassed to say I don't know how I'd feel about getting changing with a transsexual woman who still had a penis, but the bigger issue is predatory men using the new rules as a way to easily access female changing rooms. How is this to be prevented if it will be seen as discriminatory to challenge people? I also don't see how this benefits transsexual people as I don't think this is going to sit well with the majority of people, but more importantly some people are going to be looking at them and wondering if they're a transsexual or a pervert. Who wants people wondering if you're a pervert?! How is that going improve your life?! Or am I being too simplistic?

It still seems like more individual, family and disabled cubicles are the easiest solution. I know some people say there isn't space at their pool or gym, but they obviously have space for a communal changing space and maybe this needs to be converted into smaller private spaces?

we shouldn't teach people to fear male bodies? Stop gaslighting. What we shouldn't teach children is that their boundaries and their consent don't matter

The two are not mutually exclusive. Are you suggesting we should teach children to fear the male body?

That is gaslighting. The absolute priority is consent and boundaries, anc I'm surprised you can't see that. I've heard 'oh we mustn't hearths male body' too many times to regard it as anything other than someone trying to break down the boundaries of women and children. The modern equivalent of 'don't be prudish I'll show you mine you show me your tits'

Today 12:06 Pratchet

That is gaslighting. The absolute priority is consent and boundaries, and I'm surprised you can't see that. I've heard 'oh we mustn't fear the male body' too many times to regard it as anything other than someone trying to break down the boundaries of women and children. The modern equivalent of 'don't be prudish I'll show you mine you show me your tits'

Prachet, you're completely missing the point.
In a communal changing area, there are many individuals, each with their own boundaries and comfort levels.

The lady who took her young son in the changing rooms with her made another woman feel uncomfortable. Neither woman (nor the boy) had done anything wrong, and yet discomfort and someone's boundaries had been crossed. Who should be afforded the priority?

The situation where a mother sent her son into a men's changing room, but didn't want her son to see naked men. Whose boundaries take priority in that situation. Did the men do something wrong? did the boy? no, neither did.

It's wonderful to proclaim that boundaries need to be respected, but the reality is that in a communal changing room, there has to be some compromise (or people have to use cubicles). That's before we get onto the issue of trans people choosing whichever room they like (which I am against).

There's no 'gaslighting' here, these are real world situations as evidence by other posters where discomfort and disagreement exist even between women and men in their own segregated areas.

As for not fearing men's bodies. I will repeat what I said previously, we have to find a sensible balance between teaching our children the dangers that adults (particularly men) present and making them paranoid. How on earth is that not a sensible statement?

I'm not missing the point. When you enter a communal changing area for women or kids under 8 of the opposite sex, that is giving consent to being around those people possibly naked or seeing you possibly naked. Same with the men's. It's possible that men are so unable to behave themselves that extra child supervision is needed in male facilities, as described above. That is it. No one needs to be educating anyone about male bodies in public locker rooms. I'm sure there are many men who'd be happy to help, but it's not required.

When you enter a communal changing area for women or kids under 8 of the opposite sex, that is giving consent to being around those people possibly naked or seeing you possibly naked

I agree, but despite that, other posters (females) have found it uncomfortable to have a young boy in their presence. Those are not my words, but other women's. In this instance YOU are comfortable with that presence, others are less so or positively discomforted by it. In my opinion, if they read the rules on the changing rooms, and it allows for children of either sex, then they have to accept that and it means their personal boundaries have to be compromised.

As for the male nakedness, my point is that, yes, males are far more likely to be offenders than women (although some women do offend) BUT, that doesn't make every male changing room a highly dangerous place. My concern is that we are rapidly giving the impression that a male space is highly dangerous, so much so, we are scared to send children in there at all especially alone. There has to be some way to reduce the fear of mens changing areas and have young boys (or even girls) be less afraid of nude males. If a young boy or girl can be in the female changing room and see naked women, why can't the same happen in a male changing room? Surely that should be something we should aim for to the best of our abilities?

Right now, the tendency to take children in the ladies room is entirely understandable, but thanks to new guidelines, it's actually putting children at GREATER risk if Self-ID males can walk right in on naked women and children.

Sure some people are uncomfortable, so a few cubicles and cubicle showers should be available - absolutely agree.

I don't know why you're pushing this point about male bodies. What's your interest here? It's way more important to teach kids boundaries. Way, like way way more. Any minute now you'll be saying 'not all men'. My children didn't need to be educated about men's dicks by seeing strange men's dicks. Extraordinary suggestion.

I don't want to fall out - I think we are actually of a similar view on most things, just coming from a different perspective.
It's right for children (and adults) to be aware of the dangers that some men present, I just wanted my own children (one of each) to also know that most men aren't predators and aren't to be feared. Some dad's bring their daughters into changing rooms and the men do everything they can to help and avoid any possible embarrassment, whilst the children tend not to really care, they just want to get dressed and have their hot chocolate afterwards!

The difficulty at my own facility is that it's a combined gym and pool (a leisure hotel) and to get to the changing area from the pool, you have to pass the showers where naked men are. It's only 4 showers, so easy to walk past quickly, and men will turn away IF they notice in time, but at any other time (in the actual communal changing area), men will wear a towel if there's a little girl around. There is the odd bare bum for a moment when putting on underwear. It works pretty well imo.

I don't know why you're pushing this point about male bodies. What's your interest here?

Because a poster didn't want to send boys into the male room because they'd see naked men. It shouldn't be some horrific thing to fear, at least not in my opinion.

Yes perhaps

I'm not really bothered about telling my kids not all men are predators. They get that message all the time from society, school, ads, tv, movies. I'm more interested in telling them that some are, and they don't have 'predator' tattooed on their forehead so you can't spot them from the outside.

My children didn't need to be educated about men's dicks by seeing strange men's dicks. Extraordinary suggestion.

Nobody said that. Nobody.
I said surely we shouldn't be teaching our kids to fear a naked male body, and that there's a balance to be had between warning of dangers and making kids paranoid.

Because a poster didn't want to send boys into the male room because they'd see naked men. It shouldn't be some horrific thing to fear, at least not in my opinion

I totally agree witg this and i don't understand why seeing a naked body in the women's is nothing to worry about but a man naked in the shower in a regular getting washed and dressed capacity is something to avoid.

I don't look at anyone in the shower. But I'm not freaked out at accidental glimpses.

There's a huge difference in people being where they should be doing what is expected and say a man helicoptering round the room.

Sane with toilets. It's been used to justify men taking their girls into the women's incase they are a penis at the urinal. A man peeing at a urinal and just managing to turn your head at the wrong time and accidently catching a glance is unfortunate but it's not indicative of the man doing anything wrong.

Same with women. Huge difference between seeding a pair of breasts as they dry themselves and a full on steamy rubbing downsession with your girlfriend in full view of every one.

If the Self ID stuff goes through parliament, then there'll be no option at all. There's going to be the potential for a naked male body in any communal changing area.
I am completely against that. I don't want anybody to fear a naked male body, but I don't want it to be forced on people either. A woman's private space is a clear indication that she doesn't want any male presence there at all, and thus I strongly object to Self ID trans just having free reign to enter any area they want.

I'm not transphobic, I understand (as best I can) their predicament, but I just disagree that any female should HAVE to see a penis. That's quite different than hoping for a time when seeing one isn't a trauma or a threat and a woman can send her boy into a men's area with confidence.

I agree with you Brilliant - you explain it well

Phew - we do agree (mostly) after all!

TheBrilliantMistake Then we all of us, male and female, have to lean on Members of both Houses and even more on Ministers till they back off and see sense, don’t we?

When you say any male presence - from what age? My pool’s rule is ninth birthday which sounds right, although any age is arbitrary.

When you say any male presence - from what age? My pool’s rule is ninth birthday which sounds right, although any age is arbitrary.

That's a fair point. I was referring to adult males.
If it's a communal area that allows children of either gender (usually up to about 8/9) then the adult agrees to those conditions.
There was a poster earlier who had an age restriction of 7 or under, but their child had special needs was 8 - which is a bit of a conundrum, but other that's a different discussion.

I agree that yes, we have to register our protest at the move to allow Self ID trans into any area they wish. I have every sympathy with their issues, I just don't think their needs can override the needs of the many more women who want their privacy and protection.

"Because a poster didn't want to send boys into the male room because they'd see naked men. It shouldn't be some horrific thing to fear, at least not in my opinion."

Is this in response to me? I didn't actually say they should see naked male bodies, my concern is they are in a closed off space where I cannot see them, potentially alone with naked strangers. I cannot say if they are normal people showering or people who get off on children seeing them naked. (I've seen enough unwelcome penises from flashers to know this is a thing #metoo) I cannot prevent them being approached although I've hopefully equipped them with the right tools to deal with it if they are. Communal showers for children as young as 9, from which one or other parent is excluded, are a safeguarding nightmare.

Teach your girls to be mindful in a public place, which it is. I would never encourage my daughters to be naked out of a cubicle in the first place, so it won't matter so much if another child is in there.

Sigh, yes it’s all about the boys rights isn’t it! If my 13 year old dd found an unaccompanied (which he was) boy in the shower in the FEMALE changing room she would be upset, worried and embarrassed- why should she be made to feel like that? If the boy was old enough and capable enough to be wandering around the changing rooms unsupervised then he should not be there.

Why should girls modify their behaviour to accommodate the boys? This is nothing to do with sexualising boys but everything to do with allowing girls to maintain their privacy and understand that they do not have to allow boys into their protected places.

And yes I have a son too (and a dh who is away a lot) so I do know what it’s like!

Why should girls modify their behaviour to accommodate the boys?

but the girls are not being asked to modify their behaviour to accomidate boys, the need to modify their behaviour to accomidate themsleves if they feel embarrased by being seen changing by a male infant then they can go in the cubicles.
What your suggesting is that the little boys who are just as entitled to be in the female changing room as the little girls need to modify their behaviour to accomidate your dd or anyone else who would be upset, embarrased and worried.
Its not a female protected place, they will be for women and children of both sexes under 8, the pool will advertise that so when going in your will be prepared that there may be boys under 8.

You simply can't have a communal changing area that caters for every level of comfort and personal space. Everybody has to compromise. If the compromises are too problematic (e.g. not wishing a young child of the opposite sex to see you) then you have to use a cubicle or a find a different facility.
You can understand someone being ok with being seen naked, but not ok at being stared at, but with children present, it's not unreasonable that a child might stare. If you know that children are allowed in the communal area then you're also agreeing to accepting normal child behaviour too.
It's really unfortunate if a young boy or girl is uncomfortable with another child of the opposite sex, but neither is at fault and both parents have accepted the rules that this situation might happen.

But it was not a communal changing area - it was the female changing area. If young boys are in it they should be supervised- this child clearly wasn’t as he was in the showers without the knowledge of his grandmother.