AIBU about Girlguiding’s transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I’m the OP of this thread on feminism chat: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3185944-victoria-derbyshire-today-and-girlguides

I know this has been discussed before BUT the thread has far more responses than I expected. There are responses from leaders who’ve had their concerns dismissed and a number of parents seem unhappy.

Feminism chat is well known for its self selecting, gender critical audience. A lot of people will have that topic hidden. It’s obvious from my posts that I’m gender critical but I really would like to hear the thoughts and experiences of a wider group.

To be clear, my position is very much inclusive. But I do take issue with GG staying that it’s always been a single gender (not sex) organisation and that non trans girls do not get to chose whether they share accommodation on trips with a transgirl. The choice lies with the transgender child. Parents are not informed if their daughters will be sharing what is effectively mixed sex accommodation. It’s difficult because the transgender child must have privacy - but how can parents give informed consent?

As a leader, I’m struggling to see how I can safely balance the needs, privacy and preferences of all children in my care under the current guidelines. I have challenged GGHQ but not received any satisfactory answers.

For reference, here’s the official policy: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

If you have a view, do come and join us on the other thread. I’ll be offline for a while as I’m at guides later this afternoon but will be back tonight.

Thank you Hideandgo and big thanks to this thread to remind me that I must do that as well and write to GG and DD's local troupe expressing my support for their inclusive stance.

I think there are areas around sex segregation/trans inclusivity which are more complex and challenging but I really feel that making GG and other youth groups open and welcoming to vulnerable young people don't fall into that category.

Let's hope girl guides don't have to be sexually assaulted like the ones that Karen White attacked before the Guides realise this is a safeguarding nightmare

Women, not ones.

And let's not forget the child rapist and torturer David Challenor liked to dress up as a girl called Lucy and was a Scout leader. I'm sure Challenor would be delighted to have unfettered access to little girls

I have been an active scout leader for several years and when relocatiing to UK I wanted to join to either scouts or guides. There were so many rules, guidelines, courses, things that you had to inform the parents, what you were allowed to do etc. that I decided not to join since it was too much and too complicated.

I don't have word of advice since the way we did it is not applicable or allowed in the UK. But I do feel for you. THe guidelines are not great and they are difficult to follow when parents and the organisation can feel differently. I'm all for inclusivity and I do believe they should be allowed to go with their chosen gender and potentially have mixed groups where gender is irrelevant.

Orchid, please keep in mind we are speaking about young children here. Barely even teenagers. Maybe you weren’t implying that 6 and 10 and 13 yr old trans girls are a danger for carrying out horrific sexual assaults on their peers and meant trans leaders but even so, that’s a pretty bigoted statement.

Also, I don’t think KW would have passed the DBS checks all leaders have to complete.

Hideandgo

If you think that children are unable to carry out sexual attacks then you are very naive in fact because of the internet they are on the increase

I was on the safe guarding board for my local area
The policeman who sits on it says he is now attending incidents in primary schools were 6 years ago he wasn’t and even had to attend one in a Nursey school

Somone who is confused about their sex egged on by adults suffering the bullying that comes with being encouraged by adults to were a dress and have pink bows in means these children are usually very messed up

Also, I don’t think KW would have passed the DBS checks all leaders have to complete.

Challenor did....

Guides goes up 18 - not sure I'd want an 18 year old biological male sharing a shower with my 14 yo dd. It's not fair to put biological girls in that situation - they won't feel safe but they'll have no choice but to accept it.

Hideandgo

Also, I don’t think KW would have passed the DBS checks all leaders have to complete.

no crimes would of come up after all he would of applying as a women but have his crimes recorded as a man

Ok Hideandgo if you are going to talk about guiding, at least get it right:
Rainbows 5-7yrs
Brownies 7-10yrs
Guides 10-14yrs
Rangers 14-18yrs
Plus lots of over 18 adults.

So you see, as most girls (xx type) start their periods at around 10 or 11 there is plenty of risk in putting xy types in with xx types.
Or are teens much less randy now than they used to be?

And that's without considering privacy issues of being in an intimate space with someone of the opposite sexed body.

We have safeguarding measures in place not because we think that "all males are rapists" or that all adults are a danger to children, but because a few ARE. We screen and check and apply safeguarding rules to protect the many from the few who do pose a risk.

You know this, and I question your motives for wanting to do away with it.

It's not bigoted to point out that female bodied people are at risk of sexual assault from male bodied people. The NSPCC recommends that children of different sexes shouldn't share a room post the age of 10. Why does that recommendation change because a child says they identify as the other sex?

And while White may not have passed a DBS, Challenor did. And given himself predilection for little girls, I don't doubt that men like him will take advantage of the whole TWAW narrative. Just like Karen White did

having been to a mixed sex school, well boys were making sexual comments, at school, (and groping/pinging bra straps and other inapproriate things from as young as 11) There will not be a leader in every room, they are not going to be watched over all the time.

also showering in fornt of the opposite sex is not appropriate. gender may change, but sex does not change.

Would I be fine with my dd going on a sleepover with guides and sharing a room with a boy? No.
I think parents have a right to know if that would be the case so they can make an informed descision about the care of their child. That is key for me.
Many trans men retain attraction for women and so many trans boys can retain attraction for girls. A boy of that age who is trans will not have had surgery and statistically is unlikely to ever have surgery and so retains his penis during his agirl guide attendance years.
So in terms of potential biological fall out the question is- would you let your daughter have a mixed sex sleep over. NFW.
My daughter also has a right to change and use toilets that are fully sex segregated as she would be over the age of 8. That is a requirement in Law in this country for good reason.

Sorry slight correction- my daughter has a legal right to sex segregated toilet facilities.

Those of you patting yourselves on the back for writing in favour of this policy seem to have missed a very important part of it. The GG may be including transgirls, but they are actively excluding gender non-conforming and transboys. So how are GC MNers being so horribly trans exclusive? Surely the Girl Guides are!

• gender non-conforming girls

Hideandgo, I became sexually active in my early teens. Between a half and a third of teenagers do. The average age for boys is 15, for girls it's 16. And kids can be predators. You seem very innocent of how the world works.

I'm not probably intellectual enough for this thread but I'd say I wouldnt want my daughter sharing accommodation with essentially a boy. The world has gone mad and I feel sad for the generations of the future.

Thanks for the confirmation.

My concerns are:

• the embarrassment factor for both parties regarding adolescent bodies and the strange things that happen to them during puberty. I am assuming trans girls with no treatment still have the same involuntary erections and wet dreams that a non trans boy has. Won't that cause a degree of discomfort for everyone in the tent? Equally, my eldest daughter had her first period on camp, she appreciated the reassurance she got from the other girls who had already started their periods. Would they have been accused of being exclusive by talking about it with a trans girl?

• same sex sexual (consensual) experimentation, it happens but a trannsgirl has the potential to get a non trans girl pregnant.

- trans exclusion - I am actually angriest that I am being told that any girl who identifies as binary or male must be asked to leave. They are not welcome. That screams wrong to me as I think those young people are the ones who need to be able to explore who and what they are in a 'safe' environment. If they don't conform to what GGUK/society deems 'girly' - then they're out! - informed consent. It seems to be that the trans girl gets to call all the shots and we all roll over and accept it. No letting the non trans girls or their parents know, never mind have a say. How can that be right?

For the poster who believes that children aren't sexual at that age, you are being unbelievably naive. I've just spent a sleepless night agonising about an article released recently by TES (The Time's educational supplement) where a 6 year old girl was raped on a school yard by a 9 or 10 yr old boy. The girl, the victim was shouted at by teachers for being in a state of undress. The details are incredibly distressing and I'm unable to link as my phone, but it's out there.

We would assume and hope that this isn't the norm for younger age groups but we cannot guarantee that younger and younger ages are gaining access to the internet and seeing porn. The internet has completely altered the landscape for childhood and adolescence and if it results in a small number of children offending like this, then still that risk is too great.

You are in a position to minimise risk and maximise safeguarding yet to say that younger ages are harmLESS is breathtakingly naive. GG is for older girls so the risk is greater.

Another document that's seemingly being endorsed (if not endorsed, then certainly ignored as its steam-rollered
into schools) is sexual advice
For trans kids. "A Woman is still a woman if she likes receiving blowjobs and a man is still a man if he likes to be penetrated vaginally" - this is advice for trans teenagers (I suppose I'm posting this for those that don't think this is a 'thing' - this is happening)

GG sees no risk here and as parents, you will have no CHOICE and absolutely NO AWARENESS if your girl is sharing sleeping accommodation with a trans girl who presents as a girl but who fully functions as a boy. To argue that this isn't an issue because of 'safety in numbers' and 'they share dorms - not private rooms' etc is breathtakingly naive. Sure, predatory behaviour may be a tiny percentage, but the risk is there.

And before anyone says I'm a bigot or transphobic or hateful or just 'zzzzzz', I fully believe that allowing this is completely overlooking the uniquely different needs of a trans identifying teenage boy, with complex emotional needs and physically male sexual urges.

Sex segregation must underpin all safeguarding. We are ignoring historical patterns from when time began to cater for a tiny minority of vulnerable people who need to have their rights respected, but NOT at the cost of womens and girls safeguarding.

That last paragraph. That's it concisely. Thank you

Sex segregation must underpin all safeguarding. We are ignoring historical patterns from when time began to cater for a tiny minority of vulnerable people who need to have their rights respected, but NOT at the cost of womens and girls safeguarding

^
This!

There’s some posts about it on the Girl Guiding FB Page for those who are interested, here.

Because this thread comes up on the first page of searches for the keywords girl guides transgender I'm adding the links to the latest thread discussions for any parents who are googling after receiving today's mass email from the Girl Guides.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3376194-Girl-guiding-email-to-parents?msgid=81312185#81312185

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3373458-girlguiding-expels-leaders-who-question-trans-policy

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3375580-girlguiding-issue-coming-up-good-morning-britain

Lucy Bannerman in The Times has covered the consequences for girls (human females) who are questioning their gender identity and self id as 'non-binary' or 'transboys':

'Ban for Girl Guides who identify as boys'
(extracts)
Girls who self-identify as boys are to be asked to leave the Girl Guides in a move that has been lambasted by parents and guide leaders as “cruel, unfair and appallingly hypocritical”. (continues)

The Times can reveal that the same policy advocates the exclusion of girls who say they are transgender. Those who identify as male or “non-binary” will be discouraged from joining the Guides, while those who are already guides and have taken the “Promise” — the Guides’ oath of allegiance — will be asked to leave, the charity confirmed.

“Girlguiding is for girls and therefore we expect a young person who identifies as male wouldn’t look to join,” the charity said." (continues)

Concludes:
"Girlguiding recently faced criticism for expelling two guide leaders who claimed that the new transgender policy contradicted elements of their safeguarding duties. The women questioned why boys who identify as transgender must be treated differently from the sons of guide leaders.

A Girlguiding spokeswoman said: “We’ve had advice from Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence and continue to review our policy as new guidance and best practice emerges.”
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0eba70ea-c1da-11e8-a932-84839f5183a4

Lucy Bannerman: twitter.com/TimesLucy/status/1045243865706450944