AIBU about Girlguiding’s transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I’m the OP of this thread on feminism chat: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3185944-victoria-derbyshire-today-and-girlguides

I know this has been discussed before BUT the thread has far more responses than I expected. There are responses from leaders who’ve had their concerns dismissed and a number of parents seem unhappy.

Feminism chat is well known for its self selecting, gender critical audience. A lot of people will have that topic hidden. It’s obvious from my posts that I’m gender critical but I really would like to hear the thoughts and experiences of a wider group.

To be clear, my position is very much inclusive. But I do take issue with GG staying that it’s always been a single gender (not sex) organisation and that non trans girls do not get to chose whether they share accommodation on trips with a transgirl. The choice lies with the transgender child. Parents are not informed if their daughters will be sharing what is effectively mixed sex accommodation. It’s difficult because the transgender child must have privacy - but how can parents give informed consent?

As a leader, I’m struggling to see how I can safely balance the needs, privacy and preferences of all children in my care under the current guidelines. I have challenged GGHQ but not received any satisfactory answers.

For reference, here’s the official policy: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

If you have a view, do come and join us on the other thread. I’ll be offline for a while as I’m at guides later this afternoon but will be back tonight.

OP, it sounds as though, like many people, girl guides have been unquestioningly accepting of trans pressure groups' dogma that there is such a thing as a female brain in a male body.

And that means the person is female.

Even if you cut my brain out and put in the body of a man, they would still be a man.

Irrespective of how my brain thought.

Because sex is a description of biological function. Not a description of the way we think.

In a way, I don't blame them. So many people have uncritically accepted the notion that sex refers to the way somebody thinks (despite how reggressive that is).

Furthermore, can't imagine that the people who run the girl guides do much specific research via social media surfing. Or end up in the places that, unfortunately, gender critical women have found themselves, when drilling down into this issue.

Perhaps it's time to recommend they google #transgirls.

They, quite urgently, need to see the underbelly to this that is being deliberately whitewashed.

Fortunately, the equality law can still protect trans children, despite an organisation having a detailed and comprehensive idea of the pitfalls of blindly following an ideology, rather than an equality process.

I’ve been following this thread on Feminism. Brownes and Guides were some of the best times of my childhood. It’s criminal that they’re being ruined by the PC brigade. For once I hope the press does pick up this thread!

What you described isn't "can't share" but "won't share

And if a biological female does not want to share personal spaces with biological males then they should have the right and choice not to do so.

I find both the safeguarding issue and the fact that so many families will keep there children away from GG now (especially those toughest to reach because of ethnicity, etc) really concerning .... both frightening and very sad. They had made such great steps to be inclusive to girls from all cultural backgrounds, and this is going to be lost

@NoqontroI

Uh, Guides isn't compulsory.

@4Funnels Guides is not compulsory, but it's something which is (at least until now) currently enriching the lives of half-a-million girls, many of which would not have access to opportunities of a similar nature. Where should they go?

And I note you don't have any answer about where girls can go who cannot (not won't - cannot) share intimate space with natal boys because of prior abuse.

"Where should they go?"

Guides.

Someone way upthread posted this:

I just asked my very sensible 12 yr old scout dd about sharing a tent/room with a trans girl - ‘as long as it wasn’t just me and them in the room, that there was another born girl with me I’d be okay with it’.

This is such a lovely, kind response. I have no doubt at all that lots of girls would respond similarly.

But do we really believe that 12 year olds always know what's best for them? At 12 I had a very loose grasp of what sex involved. I knew some men hurt women and I knew I'd narrowly avoided being sexually assaulted aged 7 although I didn't fully understand what might have happened. I had no clue at all about the reality of rape, and the damage it does. I didn't know about sexual bullying. I didn't know anything about periods but I was just beginning to develop breasts and would have been horrified at the idea of 14 year old boy seeing them.

I was a naive 12 year old in some ways, but so what? Lots are. At 12 you hopefully have no concept of the harm that can be done to you which is why we work to protect children. Segregating them on the grounds of sex is part of that.

At 12 you know jack shit.

Uh, Guides isn't compulsory.

Guides enriches the lives of lots of girls. It plays a very positive role in their development. For some kids it gives them an awful lot.

Uh, Guides isn't compulsory

Should the biological girls leave this long standing biological girls organisation then, to make way for the girls who have penises?

And when they can't (not "won't" but "can't") go to Guides, 4Funnels, because they can't share intimate space with natal boys because of things like prior trauma or religious restriction, where should they go?

Or don't they matter?

YANBU Op - fully agree with you.

I thought the original argument was trans individuals needed to be in women’s spaces to stay safe from men that would hurt them for being trans.

Now it appears trans individuals require access to any and all female spaces regardless of anyone else’s feelings on the matter because they believe they are entitled to. Anyone who doesn’t like it for any reason can go home apparently.

I’d love someone to explain how this demonstrates how someone has a female brain or essence trapped in a male body because it’s the exact opposite of how women behave in general and how women are expected to behave regarding issues such as this.

"Should the biological girls leave this long standing biological girls organisation then"

No. I haven't suggested anything like that.

"religious restriction"

Bollocks to that. The sooner religion dies out the better it will be for all; especially women and girls.

No. I haven't suggested anything like that

What do you suggest they do then, as sharing personal space with people with biological male bodies is not an option for many biological girls?

Meant to say that "religious restrictions" are always a 'won't', not a 'can't'.

And until then just throw girls with religious families under the bus?

Well yes 4funnels when we are free of male violence and oppression of women and girls then maybe we won't need laws to protect women. That's not the world we live in now though is it. I prefer legislation to be based on current facts rather than some imaginary world.

"sharing personal space with people with biological male bodies is not an option for many biological girls?"

Yes it is. It is an option.

"And until then just throw girls with religious families under the bus?"

Fuck! That's a bit harsh. I'd try explaining to them why religion poisons everything.

@birdsdestiny

Are we free of female violence because we have laws to protect against it.

What was the point you were trying to make?

Bollocks to that. The sooner religion dies out the better it will be for all; especially women and girls.

So what do the religious biological girls do then? Be forced to share with people who have biological male bodies because you don't agree with their religious choices either?

I am a biological woman. I have been in guiding since I was 7, the last 24 years as a leader. My DM was a guider, my DD is a leader, both my DGDs are members.

I am not a religious woman, but I respect those who are, and I worry that girls from different backgrounds will now be unable to join, especially as guiding has gone to such lengths to be inclusive- the latest uniform has options which are "modest" (long sleeves and legs covered) and a hijab option, for example.

Also, why should I be forced out of this organisation, which I care deeply about btw, in order to validate the "feelings" of males?
If I were forced to share sleeping and washing facilities with a male bodied person then I would have to leave. If I were to be put in the position of having to lie to parents about having "girl only" accommodation at residentials with all the safe guarding risks of opposite sex teens sleeping together then I would have to leave.

When, not if, there is an "incident" it will be the unit leader who is torn to shreds for lack of care, not gghq.

Ok, explain to religious Muslim dads how religion poisons everything, and they should let their daughters share a room with boys on Pack Holiday, you've just removed that girl's opportunity to ever go to Brownies and, likely, any other secular group.
Is that not throwing her under the bus?

Girls are children. So if they are from a religious family who dont allow them to socialise with boys, it is beyond their control; until they are adults, and free to make their own choices

Yes it is. It is an option

For many it isn't. Myself included. Just because you think its an option doesn't actually make it one.

I am not religious. I am an atheist. I have 2 daughters aged 12 and 7. Neither of them would share a bedroom with boys through their own choice. For 1 of them, it would be traumatising due to past experience. The other, just wouldnt feel confortable. I wouldnt allow it, due to common sense.