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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU about Girlguiding’s transgender policy?

300 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 07/03/2018 15:11

I’m the OP of this thread on feminism chat: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3185944-victoria-derbyshire-today-and-girlguides

I know this has been discussed before BUT the thread has far more responses than I expected. There are responses from leaders who’ve had their concerns dismissed and a number of parents seem unhappy.

Feminism chat is well known for its self selecting, gender critical audience. A lot of people will have that topic hidden. It’s obvious from my posts that I’m gender critical but I really would like to hear the thoughts and experiences of a wider group.

To be clear, my position is very much inclusive. But I do take issue with GG staying that it’s always been a single gender (not sex) organisation and that non trans girls do not get to chose whether they share accommodation on trips with a transgirl. The choice lies with the transgender child. Parents are not informed if their daughters will be sharing what is effectively mixed sex accommodation. It’s difficult because the transgender child must have privacy - but how can parents give informed consent?

As a leader, I’m struggling to see how I can safely balance the needs, privacy and preferences of all children in my care under the current guidelines. I have challenged GGHQ but not received any satisfactory answers.

For reference, here’s the official policy: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

If you have a view, do come and join us on the other thread. I’ll be offline for a while as I’m at guides later this afternoon but will be back tonight.

OP posts:
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9
4Funnels · 08/03/2018 13:30

@NoqontroI

I'm really confused.

I thought "bollocks to that" covered my feelings towards religion.

"So what do the religious biological girls do then?"

Whatever they want. Hopefully attend Guides, get a lot out of it (as I did) and realise that religion is fucking stupid.

"Be forced to share with people who ..."

No one is forced to do anything. I've kept saying that there's free choice. I assume this 'religion' we keep talking about is Islam (only slightly worse than the other Abrahamic religions). I'm not advocating ripping off their head covering* simply not 'ruling' the Guides by religious need.

How about if my Jewish niece couldn't come on camp because food wasn't Kosher. Does your religious inclusion stay the same or does it only apply when you're against trans men?

*I lived in the Middle East for a few years and did make a point of telling every girl who took their head covering off in front of me that they had the most beautiful hair I'd ever seen.

SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 13:35

They would provide kosher food

NoqontroI · 08/03/2018 13:37

How about if my Jewish niece couldn't come on camp because food wasn't Kosher. Does your religious inclusion stay the same or does it only apply when you're against trans men?

No doubt dietary accomodations could and would be made for your biological female Jewish niece should she want to attend / join this biological female organisation.

birdsdestiny · 08/03/2018 13:39

My point was religion does exist and is covered by the equality act. Your views on religion aren't really relevant. That's not how soceity or the law operates.

4Funnels · 08/03/2018 13:40

On camp Sema?

Kosher and Halal and Vegan and gluten free and peanut free and dairy free?

From what I know about keeping Kosher, I can't see how this is possible at camp. Different sets of crockery are needed for a start.

Times have moved on. When I camped with the Guides we made bread dough (full of grass) which we partially cooked over the fire on green sticks and rabbit stew. We butchered the rabbits ourselves, of course.

SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 13:41

4funnels it is interesting that you want to accomodate the trans ideology, but not any other religious ideology. Why do you think that is?

To think that someone can be born in the wrong body, you have to believe that human beings exist as entities independant of their physical bodies i.e. spirits. There is no scientific basis for this belief. Infact, i understand that there is a long standing offer of 1 million pound reward to anyone who can provide proof of the existence of spirits

Transing of children= encouraging rigid gender roles/steteotypes, and a life time of damaging pharmaceutical dependancy and unnecessary risky cosmetic surgery. Its a fairly dangerous ideology, to support

drspouse · 08/03/2018 13:42

How about if my Jewish niece couldn't come on camp because food wasn't Kosher.
If she's in a religious community, then the chances are there's a closed Jewish unit that cooks proper kosher on camp.
If she's OK having careful vegetarian (no food touching meat) she'd be catered for in any unit.

I lived in the Middle East for a few years and did make a point of telling every girl who took their head covering off in front of me that they had the most beautiful hair I'd ever seen.
Bully for you. Assuming you are a woman, having beautiful hair and showing it to women is fine in the cultural outworkings of Islam that suggest hair covering. She'll have heard the same from friends and family, who she actually knows, and from her husband, for her that's who her beauty is for so you pointing it out is not going to make her go "oh wow! Let me stop covering my hair because I thought it was ugly and now this Western lady has set me straight!".

SemaMjinga · 08/03/2018 13:43

A 'different set of crockery' is hardly an obstacle funnels

nancy75 · 08/03/2018 13:44

Why should it be about can't share? what if they just don't want to share?

There have been plenty of men's groups over the years that didn't/don't want to share with women, we have the right to say we don't want to share with people with a penis.

I might start up a guides type organisation that is just for people without a penis - no judgement on whether your penis is male or female, just if you have one you can't come in.

I take it we haven't reached the point where having a penis is an issue protected in law?

NoqontroI · 08/03/2018 13:46

Why should it be about can't share? what if they just don't want to share?

Exactly. Don't want to is a good enough reason.

HandbagKrabby · 08/03/2018 13:53

Yep 1000s of years of biological sex based oppression all across the world, based on the interpretation of various ancient and modern religious edicts is going to be easily erased by a few tweets and a PowerPoint about why male bodies aren’t necessarily male anymore.

Anyone with any understanding, empathy or compassion for women and girls can comprehend what’s going to happen here. People know full well some religious families will pull their girls out of guides when this hits the mainstream, they just don’t care.

Underparmummy · 08/03/2018 13:56

The real problem is once safe spaces are gone we will never get them back

SmurfOrTerf

This.

Iminthecclubnow · 08/03/2018 14:01

4funnels it is interesting that you want to accomodate the trans ideology, but not any other religious ideology

Good point.

And I kind of think the religious thing is a red herring anyway. If girls don't want to change with, sleep in the same room as, shower with etc male bodied boys, for whatever reasonthen that's ok and it's very important that we continue to reiterate to them that that's ok. It is vitally important that girls are allowed to maintain the boundaries of what they are and are not comfortable with when it comes to the opposite sex.

BeyondDeadlySiren · 08/03/2018 14:09

On a vaguely similar note to the religion question, 4funnels - I'm curious as to whether you would accept an adult sharing a room with children because they feel like a child?
Afaik, adults have their own facilities for safeguarding purposes.

namechangedasimaguider · 08/03/2018 14:14

Yes we can cater for diff food requirements, even at camp.
I have catered for (all at the same camp ) a vegan, vegetarians, a pescatarian, lactose intolerant, "won't eat chicken" (or quorn or hardly any veg) and one only eats chicken. It was a challenge, but no one went hungry and everyone had a balanced diet.
We have also catered for a girl with a nut allergy, vegetarians, and lactose intolerant as well as the usual picky eaters so a religious diet would be perfectly possible.

4Funnels · 08/03/2018 14:20

NoqontroI - it is an option. YOU have a choice. If you don't, contact the police.

You made a point of saying "biologically female" without knowing my niece as well as missing the fact that organisations change (see Scouts)

Keeping Kosher is actually very difficult and very costly (according to B a SiL)

"Don't want to is a good enough reason."

Never is when the roles are reversed though, is it?

We don't want women on the board. We don't want to employ a woman as she's more likely to have maternity leave. We don't want a woman in the police force as she's physically weaker etc

DrSpouse

"explain to religious Muslim dads how religion poisons everything"

Find me one and I will. I'd love to. That's the father and his ridiculous beliefs who is throwing his daughter under the bus, not 'me' though.

Yes, I'm a woman (was that a hint of PAness there?). I don't know the exact laws but none of the primary children had husbands, as far as I'm aware. If I wasn't a woman then they wouldn't have been allowed to be so 'immodest' in my company.

I wasn't trying to tell those little girls that they were wrong, their hair isn't ugly. I was trying to tell them that they shouldn't be covering their hair because a book or otherwise told them so. They should do what they wanted to do.

Sema

Excellent question. To answer, I assume that trans ideology = belief in innate gender differences.

Firstly, I hate religion. I think it's evil. It poisons everything. There is not a single instance in which religion has bettered anything. It either makes no difference or, as is usually the case, makes things much, much worse. I'm a massive anti-theist and feel either anger or pity for religious people depending on their circumstances.

I don't think that personality and a soul are the same though. I think our personality is made up of chemical balances and electrons firing and pathways in the brain and a myriad of other factors but none of these are due to a supernatural being.

I have experienced how in so many children, separated by culture and geography and other factors, girls tend to do things a certain way and boys another. There's a massive overlap but I think it's absolutely ridiculous (on a par with intelligent design) to think that men and women can be so different in so many demonstrable ways from the neck down (that's above the Adam's Apple, of course) but from the head up we must be the same. It goes against logic and my experience.

So, I believe in innate gender differences and it's a tiny step to then think that you can have someone in the wrong body.

Stereotypes exist for a reason. I see it every day when on MN or my 'other forum' for my sport which is male-dominated.

The argument comes down to nature or nurture and that is an debate we can't yet settle.

Your question about drugs ie. when a child can "trans" (is that a verb) is a difficult one and I'm glad it isn't my job to decide. It seems to me quite similar to abortion. I'm for it but no idea when it is okay and when it isn't.

Beyond

Do they walk, talk, act and believe they are a child? Assuming that they pose no risk to the other guides (and I come from the slightly unusual, on this thread at least, innocent until guilty) why not?

A physically and mentally disabled boy stayed at Beavers with my son for longer than he 'should' because it was a much better fit than moving to Cubs. It taught the other children to accept people for who they are. He wasn't the boy who stood out because of his chair or electronic voice, but just 'Dave' (not real name). He's now got a DBS check to continue to attend Cubs but certainly not as a 'helper'.

MrsJoshDun · 08/03/2018 14:24

When I was a 14yo girl guide I was a volunteer helper with the brownie pack and attended brownie camp sleeping in the dorms with them. So now a 14yo boy could spend the night unsupervised with 7yo girls. Nice. But of course only if he says he's a girl. Otherwise it would be a major safeguarding issue.

jellyfrizz · 08/03/2018 14:40

I have experienced how in so many children, separated by culture and geography and other factors, girls tend to do things a certain way and boys another.

I've taught young children on three continents and it's amazing how the boy and girl 'tendencies' happen to follow their particular society's idea of how girls and boys should do things (think football/soccer here vs. in the USA) rather than innate behaviours that ALL girls vs. ALL boys do.

Oddly, gender stereotypes are not as prominent in single sex schools.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 08/03/2018 14:42

Do they walk, talk, act and believe they are a child? Assuming that they pose no risk to the other guides (and I come from the slightly unusual, on this thread at least, innocent until guilty) why not?

This is one of the most naive things I've ever read. You think that adults without learning disabilities ever believe they're children without a fetish being involved?

This is Stephoknee. Stephoknee left his wife and children to live as a transwomen. He decided he was also a 6 year old year girl. He has been adopted by a couple and plays with their child

Stephoknee loves to be anally raped by her stepfather to enable her to fully live the life of a six year old kid.

Stephoknee has advised the Canadian government, I believe, on trans issues, if I am remembering correctly.

Still happy to think that some adults believe they are children and are entitled to do so?

If they don't wish to do so for sexual pleasure, what reason could they have for doing so?

birdsdestiny · 08/03/2018 14:45

Again your views in religion are utterly irrelevant. Protected under the equality act.
I can't believe that I really have to explain the difference between illegal discrimination against women (your police force example) and sex segregated spaces to protect womanss privacy dignity and safety. The women on this board do not object to men having their own toilets or their own groups to discuss mens health issues for example. We would not ask to share them. You would have to very entitled to do so.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 08/03/2018 14:46

So, I believe in innate gender differences and it's a tiny step to then think that you can have someone in the wrong body.

Could you link to some science which supports this idea?

Because humans are capable of believing the most weird and wonderful shit imaginable but a belief is just that, a belief. Our brains aren't very rational or reliable quite a lot of the time unfortunately. Both lady brains and manly brains, if you were wondering.

NoqontroI · 08/03/2018 14:51

it is an option. YOU have a choice. If you don't, contact the police.

So, as the guiding organisation are looking at not informing parents if their biological female child is sharing a room with a person with a penis, then that is removing choice. I should call the police then yes?

You made a point of saying "biologically female" without knowing my niece as well

Indeed I don't. So if she isn't a biological female, then, as you describe her as niece, I can only assume that she is a biological male identifying as a girl then. In which case there are wider problems than the food available. Such as sleeping accomodation. The food can be managed. Sharing sleeping accommodation with biological females not so much.

well as missing the fact that organisations change (see Scouts)

Not at all. Biological males don't share female only spaces with biological females in the cubs / scouts. So there is no problem.

drspouse · 08/03/2018 14:56

Biological males don't share female only spaces with biological females in the cubs / scouts. So there is no problem.
Sadly they are also going with self-ID.

NoqontroI · 08/03/2018 14:57

Never is when the roles are reversed though, is it?

We don't want women on the board. We don't want to employ a woman as she's more likely to have maternity leave. We don't want a woman in the police force as she's physically weaker etc

Exactly. Which is why steps are taken to address this such as legislation, female spaces, shortlists etc. Which is why we don't want men taking over these rights and spaces. Bang on. Is the penny starting to drop yet?

Tanith · 08/03/2018 14:58

"On camp Sema?

Kosher and Halal and Vegan and gluten free and peanut free and dairy free?"

If I, as a lowly childminder, can manage to cater for food preferences, intolerances, religious observations etc. etc. year in, year out, then I'm sure it's not a problem for a week or two at Guide camp.