AIBU about Girlguiding’s transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I’m the OP of this thread on feminism chat: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3185944-victoria-derbyshire-today-and-girlguides

I know this has been discussed before BUT the thread has far more responses than I expected. There are responses from leaders who’ve had their concerns dismissed and a number of parents seem unhappy.

Feminism chat is well known for its self selecting, gender critical audience. A lot of people will have that topic hidden. It’s obvious from my posts that I’m gender critical but I really would like to hear the thoughts and experiences of a wider group.

To be clear, my position is very much inclusive. But I do take issue with GG staying that it’s always been a single gender (not sex) organisation and that non trans girls do not get to chose whether they share accommodation on trips with a transgirl. The choice lies with the transgender child. Parents are not informed if their daughters will be sharing what is effectively mixed sex accommodation. It’s difficult because the transgender child must have privacy - but how can parents give informed consent?

As a leader, I’m struggling to see how I can safely balance the needs, privacy and preferences of all children in my care under the current guidelines. I have challenged GGHQ but not received any satisfactory answers.

For reference, here’s the official policy: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

If you have a view, do come and join us on the other thread. I’ll be offline for a while as I’m at guides later this afternoon but will be back tonight.

"I can sense you're getting all frothy and feeling like part of some powerful pack but you shouldn't and you aren't. You're an anonymous poster on an internet forum with a demonstrably weak ability to control self-ID and acceptance of gender as an innate divide becoming enshrined in law"

You have no idea WHO I am, what I know, or who I am connected with pal. You have now been reported for making this personal and aggressively derailing a good faith discussion.

Hence forth, no one reply to this dickhead.

Name changed

"Here is the guides own survey of their members and their views- it shows just how many girls are worried or stressed by body image, every day sexism, gender stereotypes, sexual harassment and what the girls themselves would like to see."

Totally agree with you here, the level of cognitive dissonance required to hold the guides own policy in your mind simultaneously is like emotional abuse, in fact I think it IS emotional abuse of female children to on the one hand teach them about gender stereotypes, and how harmful gender is and on the other hand tell girls that they are only girls due to some ineffable female 'soul' or a 'female brain' - it's utter offensive bollocks.

However, I think all this information about what girls want, value, and how it helps them will actually help us win the argument about the value of a female only space for girls.

There are a lot of serious feminist academics out there also collating data, and researching this area. I know one PhD expert in child sexual exploitation for example, she's got a lot to say about what victims need when they are healing. There's TONNES of evidence that admitting male is detrimental to females.

That was the other Bird, GirlScout, but not to worry, I've made a donation now to Refuge (via the very funny mobile.twitter.com/Herring1967 in his attempts to answer the constant question 'When is International Men's Day?')

Priceless, I've just given a tenner too. That is funny.

I am not sure who said it but we need to inform the various groups/ charities why we are withdrawing support. My guess is lots of women support the Nspcc.

I also think if enough people put pressure on the GGA, they'll have to rethink their policy.

I do think if CHQ got enough concerns put to them they would revisit, especially in terms of safeguarding and the new Safe Space training.

I am going to craft a letter and send it, I might also ask the question at regional level as I felt I might get more of an answer than the cut and paste jobs from CHQ!

My daughter left Girl Guides because she was bored. I'm relieved. I feel very sad GG is buying into this stuff and not challenging sex stereotypes dressed up as innate identity.

Most of all I am angry that young girls are being subjected to massive gaslighting that says a boy is a girl because he says so.

Gender Recognition Certificates are for adults (correct me, please, if I am wrong).

So IMHO youngsters who are experiencing gender dysforia should be allowed to be as gender non-conforming as they like and grow up keeping their options open.

There are many unisex youth organisations to choose from. Very few for single sex.

I was part of a unisex youth organisation. It was great.

I sadly predict this will kill of support for GG. And it is there own fault!

They jumped into self Id for children and adults before anything was set in UK law for anyone (and I REALLY hope self id will not for just this sort of problem!).

They have put the desires or expectations of a tiny percentage of natal boys and men over the interests of girls.

Very sad and disappointing.

And their stance on girls who do not feel like girls/ 'trans boys' shows they are not, in fact, inclusive.

I do wonder how many 13 year olds will come back pregnant from camp before someone grasps that this is a bad idea.

Sorry for abandoning my own thread. I haven't had a chance to read every comment since my last post.

For me, the most important thing in all this are the girls. GG is an incredibly inclusive organisation - of one child can't do an activity with the unit, we adapt so everyone can participate. From rainbow chats to pow wows, the girls are encouraged to be activity participants who direct their own programme. We have great leadership schemes for older girls. I'd hate for all the opportunities, fun, friendship to be lost to some girls because GG has buried their head in the sand over a difficult issue.

I'm not saying trans girls aren't welcome - but is the current policy ethical?

"I think it's pretty rude to call someone 'smug.'

Yes, but sometimes it's just so fitting it's impossible to resist.

Just chuckling here. Ok then. Don't worry about coming back with any science or anything then. Hurling insults definitely means you win all the arguments.

Agnes just from your description I can see how much you care about your guides and how much good the organisation has done. It's amazing they've made such efforts to be inclusive. I can see how they've then got themselves in a twist with trying to be progressive on this issue but they're still throwing girls under a bus with trying to be kind to everyone.

I think it's only by people like you caring and raising your voice that they're going to realise the damage that might be done

Early transitioning transwomen are practically always sexually attracted to men not women
Do you have any evidence to support that claim? It's definitely what I have seen anecdotally.

I think you're teaching your daughters to be afraid of boys for no reason.
Not for no reason! I don't think it's unreasonable to not want a girl to share sleeping or changing spaces with boys.
I'm not afraid of men for no reason, but I don't want to have a shower or sleep in the same room as one (apart from DH)

If I go away on business and have to share a room, I absolutely will not share with someone who has a penis - no matter whether they insist that it's a female penis.

I've never had any involvement with the Girl Guides, but I feel so very saddened by this. One place where girls could be girls, and just one biological male (no matter their age) changes the dynamic in that fundamental way that women have been battling against for so very long.

No matter how convoluted the wording of the relevant Laws are, this should have been the issue where the Girl Guides HQ stood their ground and upheld the ethos of the organisation. But, instead, they've caved in. If they're not prepared to stand up for girls, they no longer have the right to their name.

Incidentally, I can't find out anything regarding transgender policies in the only other girls organisation I can think of: the Girls' Brigade. Of course, there could be all manner of reasons for that.

@kooshbin that's a very good point about girls brigade. I do actually know a GB leader. I will see what I can find out. It's just a difficult topic to talk about....

Agnes - My son was a member of the Boys' Brigade some thirty years ago for a very short time. There wasn't a Girls' Brigade locally, so my (older) daughter joined St John Ambulance instead.

The Boys' Brigade/Girls' Brigade, were/are small in numbers and heavily church-based. If there has been specific targeting by transactivists of the Girl Guides, then the Girls' Brigade wouldn't be of much interest to them: (a) not enough impact because of small numbers, and (b) church-based so up against whatever denomination involved.

It's quite possible that your GB leader friend will have little idea what you're talking about if their organisation hasn't been challenged about the trans issue.

@kooshbin you're right, Gb/BB is much smaller than GG or scouts. It's connected to the Methodist church I believe. She's a leader of GB in our home town where there's only two GB units compared to dozens of Brownies / Cubs etc.

She is a good friend and I know she's gender critical - she's has exposure to this through her work outside of GB. She's in a senior position but I don't think GB will have been targeted by Mermaids and the like in the same way GG and scouts has. I'll ask her anyway. Will be interesting to compare.

Slightly off topic but DD (7) is in Beavers and will no doubt go on to Cubs and Scouts, following in her brother's footsteps. There are two or three other girls in the group of about 15, and numbers are growing steadily. It's always seemed a slightly unfair to me that Girlguiding is (or appears to be) girls-only when Scouts is very open to girls joining.

DD refused to be put down for Rainbows from the off: she was very anti what she called 'gal-ish stuff'. In her eyes, aged 4, she felt that 'gal-ish' stuff boiled down to lots of pink, cooking and crafts. But if there are boys (transgender or not) who'd like to do 'gal-ish' stuff rather than running round a hall and shouting (which is pretty much what Beavers spend 80% of their time doing), it's a shame there isn't anywhere for them to go. Surely the whole transgender issue is only about where people sleep on camp - and that, surely, can be worked around depending on individual circumstances. I can't believe that in practice this is such an enormous issue.

Surely the whole transgender issue is only about where people sleep on camp - and that, surely, can be worked around depending on individual circumstances. I can't believe that in practice this is such an enormous issue.

I think tents could be worked out, but GG have written their policy such that they are saying parents of girls should not be informed or consulted re sleeping. They could easily have said 'however best practice safeguarding policies will be followed so guides of the male sex will need to sleep separately unless there are guides and their parents happy to share tents' (or something).

However there is also the fact that some girls would not be allowed by their parents to join guides if it were mixed sex. Plus many girls like guides because it is single sex - it is a safe place for them.

Plus also GG have in their policy stuff about transboys that implies they will be 'managed out' of the unit, whereas they could say 'any male identifying girl is welcome to stay in the unit for as long as they wish since guides is welcome to all types of girls'.

So yes, the trouble is the GG policy. If they changed their policy it wouldn't be an issue!

Scouts opened to girls because their numbers were declining so much it was to some extent a 'go mixed or close down' situation.

If parents of boys want somewhere for them to do more traditional 'girly' things they can ask scouts to be more wide ranging in their activities, or they can open their own organisation.

This isn't about boys. This is about girls.

Compromise ahead, no doubt.

And Rainbows isn't all pink fluffy unicorns. GG is about offering girls (of all ages - I include leaders as well) a wide range of experiences and opportunities - all types, that they can then try without fear of being judged, put down or ridiculed as they often are at school and in the workplace.

I do think this is a difficult one and that self ID and what it means for women and girls safe spaces is something that needs to be discussed in a respectful way without either side trying to shut down the other.

I can see that a young trans girl would want to be in GG over Scouts, for the same reasons that any other young girl would - the activities and to be around girls. Putting gender critical thoughts aside for the moment, a child who genuinely feels she is a girl wants to be part of something specifically for girls. It will make her feel safe, because if she passes as a girl, she's treated as a girl and therefore as much at risk from the male sex as someone born female. It will also make her feel accepted as a girl, the gender of her choosing. I would imagine that most transgender girls/young women who join GG will fall into this group.

From the other side, there are fears about safeguarding, which are totally understandable. Yes, with self ID there is a risk that it could be exploited. I would imagine that in the case of GG that's unlikely, because to be blunt about it, there are easier ways for boys to prey on girls. That said, I do get why people would worry about mixed sex camping. As far as I am concerned though, the bigger issue is that the sad fact is many girls and young women are subjected to sexual violence and traumatised girls may well feel uncomfortable and unsafe sharing a sleeping space with a trans girl who does not pass. Is it fair to say that traumatised girls should have to 'deal with it' in the name of equality?

On the other hand it isn't fair to police how female a trans girl looks before deciding whether she can join GG. I don't have a solution and I don't envy those of you who have to deal with this!

Hi, I've finally emailed GGUK about my concerns and have had a reply. Before I hit send again, can I fact check with you please? GGUK have said the 2010 equality Act makes clear that single sex organisations should treat people according to their acquired gender. I can't find anything other than sex being referred to under the single sex associations bit. Have I missed it?

Thanks

I’m very happy to see organisations like GG being supportive and accepting of trans girls. It’s how it should be. I’m not a huge fan of gender segregated activities, especially for children in the first place but if they must segregate then trans children must be included according to their chosen gender.

I made sure some time ago to write an email of support to the GG for their stance when certain mumsnet posters were encouraging other posters to email and pressurise the GG regarding the exclusion of trans girls. Hopefully I cancelled out just one anti-trans in the GG voice.

No, they are incorrect ImAGuider. It's been pointed out repeatedly to them on Twitter that protected characteristics under the EA are sex and gender reassignment when someone has a GRA. Gender identity doesn't come into it.

Which is precisely why Stonewall want to get the EA changed

I don’t think children should be given gender reassignment surgery. So where does that leave trans gender girls and boys in terms of rights? Would refusing them rights unless they have reassignment not push kids towards surgery? I don’t think anyone wants that.