AIBU about Girlguiding’s transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I’m the OP of this thread on feminism chat: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3185944-victoria-derbyshire-today-and-girlguides

I know this has been discussed before BUT the thread has far more responses than I expected. There are responses from leaders who’ve had their concerns dismissed and a number of parents seem unhappy.

Feminism chat is well known for its self selecting, gender critical audience. A lot of people will have that topic hidden. It’s obvious from my posts that I’m gender critical but I really would like to hear the thoughts and experiences of a wider group.

To be clear, my position is very much inclusive. But I do take issue with GG staying that it’s always been a single gender (not sex) organisation and that non trans girls do not get to chose whether they share accommodation on trips with a transgirl. The choice lies with the transgender child. Parents are not informed if their daughters will be sharing what is effectively mixed sex accommodation. It’s difficult because the transgender child must have privacy - but how can parents give informed consent?

As a leader, I’m struggling to see how I can safely balance the needs, privacy and preferences of all children in my care under the current guidelines. I have challenged GGHQ but not received any satisfactory answers.

For reference, here’s the official policy: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

If you have a view, do come and join us on the other thread. I’ll be offline for a while as I’m at guides later this afternoon but will be back tonight.

FencingFightingTorture35

Fuck knows what point you think you're demonstrating but can an adult "who loves it" be raped? If of age and enjoying it, we tend to call it 'sex'. HTH

Jelly

"gender stereotypes are not as prominent in single sex schools"

Not in my experience as a professional and as a student. Can I borrow FencingFighting's smug response and ask if you "could link to some science which supports this idea"?

FencingFightingTorture35

There are thousands of studies which show differences in behaviour between males and females.
There are physical differences in male and female brains as well as observable differences in how they're used.

10 seconds on Google should help you.

The argument comes down to nature or nurture.

HTH

Despite being a lowly child minder I assume you have an oven etc.

Different fridges for Kosher requirements? Different crockery? Cutlery? Different sinks?

Good on you if real but I don't believe you.

So sad this important thread is being derailed by sealioning.

I think let's just focus on the matter at hand.

Yes good point girlscout.
I cancelled my direct debit to the nspcc today and set one up for a local woman's refuge . It's worth remembering the power of money.

*"gender stereotypes are not as prominent in single sex schools"

Not in my experience as a professional and as a student. Can I borrow FencingFighting's smug response and ask if you "could link to some science which supports this idea"?*

Like I said it was my experience, just as you posted your experience.
But you want science. Sure. Professor of Physics at Cambridge Uni science enough for you? Take up of STEM subjects at A level for starters:

www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/oct/05/girls-physics-a-level

Good Lord.

How can anyone, with a straight face, use the possibility of small gender differences to support an argument that Steph-on-Knee is 'only having sex'.

A middle-aged man who was 'surprised' that he wasn't pregnant, given how much like a female he felt during anal sex with his stepfather.

If you think, in your wildest dreams, that this man's fetish is demonstrative of a female brain, then God help you.

Once more, the definition of a woman is not a man who fetishises women.

There's a stupid fucking name for everything eh GirlScout.

I assume that was meant at either me or FencingFightingTorture35.

I'm not looking to derail any thread. I've answered questions and asked a few and an interesting one I've not been able to answer about girls who have been abused and their needs.

What's sad about a discussion moving on?

Do you also suggest that anyone who disagrees with you is 'goady'?

It is a difficult walk on a very thin wire.

I do accept that there are children who see themselves as trans and do need support. But on the other hand children should now that there is a trans child in their group, a simple toilet trip could already cause questions.

DD was a Brownie until she was ten, I would have struggled to make her understand what trans means, I doubt they covered that in the puberty/growing up talk at school as well. I wouldn't mind a trans girl in her pack but I think it would be embarrassing for all involved if anybody would come up with an innocent question.

I very much think that while they may not be overly sexualised at that age some girls do get their period at the older Brownie stage and feel self consious, especially if they know that one girl is still biological a boy and their views are most likely more confused than anything.

Athene Donald taught me, JellyFrizz! She's a woman with a fine way with an illustrative sketch of polymer motion.

jellyfrizz

I attended a single sex school and would guess that 50% of the schools I've worked at (I'll retire in the next few years so 2-3 decades) have been single sex.

Most children achieve more at independent schools. It might be funding for resources or staff or the likelihood of better educated parents or other reasons but the results are clear.

I assume that these schools where the girls did so well in Physics are independent.

Isn't it likely that there are lots of reasons for an uptake in Physics in girls in these schools. I'd be really interested in comparing co-ed and single sex schools where the children come from a similar demographic.

Interesting article though.

Datun

I assume your comments are towards me.

I said that a consenting adult who enjoys the experience is not being raped.

As far as them having anything to do with the rest of the thread, I'm as bewildered as you.

My (state) all-girls' school had 150 pupils in the 6th form, and ran two physics A-level classes - so well over 30 girls out of 150.

The mixed 6th-form college my children will attend has over 2000 pupils. Typically they have 2 to 3 girls taking physics each year -- so about 5 pupils out of 2000.

An all-female experience does help when trying non-stereotypical activities.

Most children achieve more at independent schools. It might be funding for resources or staff or the likelihood of better educated parents or other reasons but the results are clear.

I thought you were arguing that certain preferences are innate? STEM being a boys subject is pretty much the biggest stereotype there is in education. Now, you're arguing that choice of A Level subject is actually about how rich or educated your parents are?

I think certain behaviours or preferences or what have you are innate.

I think you can have these educated out of you, or that education can make up for these 'short falls' (for want of a better term) to a certain extent and that nurture of course plays a role.

I think that if left to their own devices you would see a sex / gender divide in aptitude for certain subjects. However, a great teacher and a great school can make up for this and probably try to. There's massive pressure on indy schools to meet parent's wishes and if the parents want girls in STEM then that's what they get.

Do you think that there are no innate differences from the Adams Apple up? Doesn't this seem unlikely to you considering the many differences below?

Neck-down = nature, neck up = nurture just seems so implausible.

There is there is ample evidence to support that girls in single sex schools study more traditionally 'boys' subjects', than girls in mixed schools.

It's less about innate skill and more about gender stereotyping.

Based on interviews with 11,500 girls and young women across Europe, it finds their interest in these subjects drops dramatically at 15, with gender stereotypes, few female role models, peer pressure and a lack of encouragement from parents and teachers largely to blame.

According to Unesco, 29% of people in scientific research worldwide are women, compared with 41% in Russia. In the UK, about 4% of inventors are women, whereas the figure is 15% in Russia.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-39579321

Female and male socialisation is well documented.

BirdintheWings

Yes I agree, voting with our feet is important, I wonder if anyone has alerted NSPCC to these two threads yet? They should know why people are cancelling direct debits.

Good on you for donating to a women's shelter, I'm going to google my local ones, double check they are female only, and then set up a DD as well.

I also think if enough people put pressure on the GGA, they'll have to rethink their policy.

We are 51% of the population, they can't stop us.

As for the rest of this thread, I'm not arguing, with ANYONE on brain sex, it's debunked MRA junk science.

www.iop.org/education/teacher/support/girls_physics/file_58196.pdf

How does any of this relate to the topic at hand? It was derailed with religion bashing, ludicrous assumptions about dietary requirements on camp(which leaders go out of their way and comfort zone to accommodate).
The issue is GGUK as a feminist organisation has been aggressively targeted by the militant trans lobby putting their core beliefs at risk.

Guiding strives to negate gender stereotypes and they are now expected to embrace and assimilate a small group who want to embody the stereotype they are trying to destroy.

GirlScout72

"I wonder if anyone has alerted NSPCC to these two threads yet?"

You've clearly bought tickets on yourself!!!

"We are 51% of the population, they can't stop us."

We? Us?

Who do you think you are to speak on behalf of all women? Even in the narrow demographic of MN there's a strong divide between anti-trans and acceptance of others.

I can sense you're getting all frothy and feeling like part of some powerful pack but you shouldn't and you aren't. You're an anonymous poster on an internet forum with a demonstrably weak ability to control self-ID and acceptance of gender as an innate divide becoming enshrined in law.

I think certain behaviours or preferences or what have you are innate

Aw that's nice hun. Neuroscience disagrees with you but you can live your own dream, be the change you wanna see etc etc.

You go girl!

Back to gguk
www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/research-and-campaigns/girls-attitudes-survey-2016.pdf

Here is the guides own survey of their members and their views- it shows just how many girls are worried or stressed by body image, every day sexism, gender stereotypes, sexual harassment and what the girls themselves would like to see.

demonstrably weak ability to control self-ID

Time will tell on that one. Although clearly you'd like to feel that is the case.

There are thousands of studies which show differences in behaviour between males and females.
*There are physical differences in male and female brains as well as observable differences in how they're used.

10 seconds on Google should help you.

You were the one saying you 'believe in innate gender differences and it's a tiny step to then think that you can have someone in the wrong body.'

Ever heard of the burden of proof? It is the etiquette that you provide the evidence if you want people to seriously consider what you're saying as a possibility. . I think it's pretty rude to call someone 'smug.' This is a really, really important issue. It's not personal, but don't expect to come out with any old thing and not be challenged on it when these policy changes will have an impact on girls (some of them vulnerable). There is no doubt there are physical differences between the sexes. I don't dispute that. I was wanting to know if there was any credible science that you could link to which demonstrates you can literally be born into the wrong body.

And with reference to my referring to Stephoknee, you said, As far as them having anything to do with the rest of the thread, I'm as bewildered as you.

A poster called BeyondDeadlySiren wrote On a vaguely similar note to the religion question, 4funnels - I'm curious as to whether you would accept an adult sharing a room with children because they feel like a child?

Your response was:

Do they walk, talk, act and believe they are a child? Assuming that they pose no risk to the other guides (and I come from the slightly unusual, on this thread at least, innocent until guilty) why not?

My response was to say that this was naïve and to ask you whether adults (with no learning disabilities to speak of) ever actually believed they were children other than because it gave them sexual gratification.

I wanted to illustrate the fact that you are treating this issue as if it is harmless. I was showing you what kind of adult males choose to dress up as children. I agree that Stephoknee's sex with his 'adopted father' looks consensual and I shouldn't have used the word rape, but I do believe he is essentially enacting a rape with him. That is part of the thrill for him, that he is pretending it's non-consensual. He associates being 6 with being raped.

Anyway, I apologise OP because this really is taking the conversation away from the guiding issue and I don't want to focus on this one particularly disgusting individual. It just baffles me that people aren't aware that for some people, self-identifying as female is part of a sexual fetish. Many trans people are lovely, safe individuals who want to live peacefully. Some are not. They will potentially, at worst, have access to young guides because of this.

"Although clearly you'd like to feel that is the case"

Yes.

There are a few areas I'm unsure on but the anti-arguments make me so much more uncomfortable.

"I think it's pretty rude to call someone 'smug.'"

Yes, but sometimes it's just so fitting it's impossible to resist.