AIBU about Girlguiding’s transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I’m the OP of this thread on feminism chat: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3185944-victoria-derbyshire-today-and-girlguides

I know this has been discussed before BUT the thread has far more responses than I expected. There are responses from leaders who’ve had their concerns dismissed and a number of parents seem unhappy.

Feminism chat is well known for its self selecting, gender critical audience. A lot of people will have that topic hidden. It’s obvious from my posts that I’m gender critical but I really would like to hear the thoughts and experiences of a wider group.

To be clear, my position is very much inclusive. But I do take issue with GG staying that it’s always been a single gender (not sex) organisation and that non trans girls do not get to chose whether they share accommodation on trips with a transgirl. The choice lies with the transgender child. Parents are not informed if their daughters will be sharing what is effectively mixed sex accommodation. It’s difficult because the transgender child must have privacy - but how can parents give informed consent?

As a leader, I’m struggling to see how I can safely balance the needs, privacy and preferences of all children in my care under the current guidelines. I have challenged GGHQ but not received any satisfactory answers.

For reference, here’s the official policy: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

If you have a view, do come and join us on the other thread. I’ll be offline for a while as I’m at guides later this afternoon but will be back tonight.

this is a group for you, girls, because females can do anything

*Except share it seems.....^

Except girls aren't being asked to share, are they? The Guides leadership have decided that the inclusion of natal boys now takes priority over the inclusion of natal girls, and any girls that can't "share" intimate space with natal boys (because of prior abuse, or culture, or indeed just because they want a girls-only space) can sling their hook.

That isn't "sharing". It's girls' space being given away wholesale, after generations of girls and women have created that space.

As I said Girl SF does just talk shite and I disagree with SF on almost all levels. But if you listen to SF compared to say LM, there is a clear difference!

staySeated. I can appreciate that if you don't see the difference between traditional male only clubs and organisations and the spaces women have fought for for girls and women, you may be a little confused. You may benefit from thinking about the different organisations and the opportunities available to girls and boys. You might get a clearer picture if you think about the how girls might benefit from being exclusively around other girls.

I know this is a separate issue but I do find it interesting that guides feel
* it made me also think how sad it is that, while we have had years of little girls feeling like boys get to do more and are better at things, we now are faced with girls being shown*

I’ve found the opposite to be true at Scouts- the girls take charge, get the job done and lead much better than the boys

Oh, and after decades (literally, decades, even when I couldn't afford it) of monthly donations to the NSPCC, I've cancelled my standing order to them, as I cannot in all conscience contribute to an organisation that actively dismisses safeguarding concerns on this scale, and which puts girls in harms' way.

(And this is incredibly distressing to me, not to be able to contribute to the NSPCC, because of my own childhood, but I just can't bear to help them to do this. It goes against everything, everything , that they are supposed to be there for.)

Annie

I know! It's awful isn't it. I think one big bit of this story is the HUGE and unjustified influence these trans organisations are having on other institutions and policy.

Gendered intelligence have trained both GGA and NSPCC. Oh and the GEO, which the mum escalated her complaint to when the NSPCC were completely useless, so pretty much the replies coming back from all three organisations are word for word the same.

As OP pointed out on the other thread, prominent figure in GI also has fingers in pies in the policy for trans prisoners (50% of whom we know are sex offenders. If you read the Fair Play for Women prison reports on their website, you'll also see that transgender fetish is THE most common paraphilia in serial killers and serial sex offenders!).

The world has gone mad. NPSCC also work with mermaids re childline regarding onward referrals of kids who ring childline with gender confusion.

WHY is no one asking how these adult men (and even gender specialists are saying the biggest interference with their juvenile patients is not coming from parents, or social services or institutions but ADULT MALES (aka TiMs)) who did not have dysphoria as kids, and never had it as adults, have SO MUCH influence over the sexed bodies of other people's kids???? And want IN to every single space where women and kids, partic girls, are vulnerable?????

Enquiring minds want to know.

I should also add that your 'old money' transsexuals, who know they are a type of gay man, and who have never wanted to encroach, are deeply, deeply disturbed by this and are also trying to raise the alarm. Those people get villified even worse than we do. It's extremely sinister.

Not RTFT but has this been discussed on the We Love Girlguiding FB page? I don't know if it would be heard more?

Oh and, even more mind boggling, when concerned mum asked GGA how they screen for autogynephilia (transgender fetish - bearing in mind GGA changed their policy after an increase in ppl asking to volunteer) they replied that they are not interested in someone's sexual 'preferences' and AGP is not a crime.

Here are the diagnostic criteria for AGP

BTW all this is over on the other thread linked in the OP here

apisto i believe a guide leader posted the video clip of the discussion on this from the Victoria Derbyshire programme on the We Love Girl Guiding FB page....and admin turned off comments/took it down

Yabvu and cruel.

EleanorXx

Yabvu and cruel.

To whom?

Cruel to who??

@SemaMjinga another heavy handed approach on that page then!

Very unreasonable how? Please explain your reasonable reasoning?

Apisto

if you hop over to other thread, I believe OP tried to discuss this a while back on the FB page and was told 'some girls have penises' and was pretty much called a bigot by GGA HQ

The Victoria Derbyshire clip was posted on the We love Girlguiding page and in the closed Guide Leader support page. Both times comments were turned off after an admin posted a link to gg trans guidance on the gg website.

No debate is allowed, any comments that are made on any other thread are removed unless they are of the "they are all
girls just the same".

If anyone tweets @girlguiding the are answered, if at all, with a cut and paste job from the "official " guidelines.

GG(U.K.) is on a mission to wreck this organisation and this is just the tip of the iceberg. I can’t say more because I would out myself. I am just disappointed beyond belief every year

there have been a few of us, kicking around the idea of establishing a single issue political party to protect female spaces.

If there is any interest in this, please comment here;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3188420-Single-Issue-Political-Party-The-Protection-of-Female-Only-Spaces

I'm the OP and yes there was a thread on We Love GG UK Facebook page on this late last year.

I don't remember seeing an anti trans comments but some posters raised concerns and compared it to other policies they are aware of. IIRC one poster said at her school trans children are supported but normally have their own room for residential trips.

One of the admins said this (I was so surprised by it, I took a screenshot)

"Im not going to argue with you about this as you clearly don't understand but they aren't boys who feel female. They are girls in what we would call a male body. They are girls just as much as some people with vaginas are (same as some people with vaginas are boys and they wouldn't be able to be members of girlguiding as they are boys, not girls)."

Then another admin appeared, said she wanted the thread to end. Posted a link to GG policy then tuned off comments.

This FB group is not officially connected to GGUK but it is a massive group, with 9,500 members who are all GG leaders

I hate that an organisation set up to empower girls and women is basically agreeing that female are innately different to males in ways other than their biology.

Arguments of some innate difference is why women weren't allowed to vote, work etc.

@ArcheryAnnie

What you described isn't "can't share" but "won't share".

"They are girls in what we would call a male body".

So will we be asking people with disabilities to share their blue badges with those without disabilities. As by your reasoning they would be unkind not to.

@4Funnels so what do you do with girls who will simply not be able to make use of facilities shared with boys, either because of eg religious restrictions, or because of prior abuse?

@4Funnels (although, to be clear, I think it's perfectly OK for girls to refuse to share what they have with natal boys just because the girls don't want to share)