AIBU about Girlguiding’s transgender policy?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I’m the OP of this thread on feminism chat: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3185944-victoria-derbyshire-today-and-girlguides

I know this has been discussed before BUT the thread has far more responses than I expected. There are responses from leaders who’ve had their concerns dismissed and a number of parents seem unhappy.

Feminism chat is well known for its self selecting, gender critical audience. A lot of people will have that topic hidden. It’s obvious from my posts that I’m gender critical but I really would like to hear the thoughts and experiences of a wider group.

To be clear, my position is very much inclusive. But I do take issue with GG staying that it’s always been a single gender (not sex) organisation and that non trans girls do not get to chose whether they share accommodation on trips with a transgirl. The choice lies with the transgender child. Parents are not informed if their daughters will be sharing what is effectively mixed sex accommodation. It’s difficult because the transgender child must have privacy - but how can parents give informed consent?

As a leader, I’m struggling to see how I can safely balance the needs, privacy and preferences of all children in my care under the current guidelines. I have challenged GGHQ but not received any satisfactory answers.

For reference, here’s the official policy: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

If you have a view, do come and join us on the other thread. I’ll be offline for a while as I’m at guides later this afternoon but will be back tonight.

I'm a leader whose babies turned out to be sons. Now they are reaching the age of my Brownies, it tends not to be practical to take them away with me as it is difficult to give adequate separate sex accommodation/ washing facilities in line with the safeguarding policy.

With self IDing on gender, it strikes me as bizzarre that that policy is effectively thrown out of the window if my DS simply claims that he feels like a girl. In reality as prepubescents they pose little safeguarding risk (this would change with sexual maturity in older units) but the policy has been drawn up to protect the single sex status of Girl Guiding and its participants.

With Scouting being an alternative mixed sex organisation that avoids this issue, I can't see the attraction for a "trans-female" child who is still young enough to be in a phase and flexible in their sense of identity to join a single sex organisation.
Would Girl Guiding have to remove tomboys that feel like boys as they are then the wrong gender

There seems to be a lot of confusion in the mainstream media about the concerns raised by self identification. People legitimate concerns are often dismissed by saying something along the lines of 'trans women are no more likely to be sex offenders' etc etc. This misses the point that the majority of real concern caused by self ID isn't about people who are declaring themselves trans in good faith, it's about the fact that self ID will allow actual predators to abuse the system and pretend to be trans in order to have access to women's spaces.

For the Girl Guides specifically this is probably less of an issue, however I can well imagine it will make many Guides and their parents uncomfortable having to share a private changing or accommodation space with anorher young person who still presents as biologically male.

Not to mention the issues involving possible sexual relationships etc. I was in Scouts and we always found a way to get access to the Guides when we were away on combined camps, despite any mixing being proactively policed. If you decide to let young people of different biological sexes share accomodation, it is a virtual certainty that eventually something sexual will happen.

Girl Guides: this is a group for you, girls, because females can do anything, and be strong, and sometimes they need a space to do that with other females.

Also Girl Guides: Jaime is joining the pack because although you've all been in his class at school as Jamie since you were 4, Jaime is actually a girl and knows this because he likes pink things and being caring. So, y'know, the same as you!

Fuck this fucking shit.

It concerns me.
I think people assume that a 14 yr old trans girl will be attracted to boys. That isn't necessarily true. They may well be attracted to girls. Certainly, most late transitioning Trans Identifying men consider themselves lesbians.
I think managing periods deserves all female space.
I think girls from cultures that require sex based segregation should still be able to participate. I would say this is a racist policy, which excludes Muslim girls from guiding.

I cannot understand why the usual safeguarding and risk assessments are no longer necessary in this case. Would a 14 yr old son of a guide leader be allowed to share a tent with the other children? Why not?

People posting responses like 'zzzzzzzzz' - do you really think it's appropriate for a teenage boy to share a room with teenage girls. Regardless of gender dysphoria, do you have absolutely no concerns at all about either teenage pregnancy or the possibility of sexual abuse occurring (not because of someone being trans but because of them being male)?

I think it's rather naïve to say there would be multiple girls present. Teenagers have sex. They would find a way if they wanted to easily enough. Are people really happy with the idea of their 13 or 14 year old daughter coming home from a Guide camp pregnant?

I'm not a scout leader but we did discuss how scout handle this on the feminism thread. Scouts have successfully run mixed sex camps for a number of years.

But - if a girl self IDs as a boy then she is entitled to use the boys facilities and vice versa. So some accommodation will be mixed and some segregated.

To be fair to Scouts from what I read their policy does recommend a number of options include separate accommodation for the transgender child. Which is a step up from GG'a policy.

I think girls from cultures that require sex based segregation should still be able to participate. I would say this is a racist policy, which excludes Muslim girls from guiding

I agree with this pickle...i raised this in my email to GG. Wait up and i will copy over their response from the other thread...

Girlguiding is an inclusive organisation and is committed to being open and providing equality of opportunity for all girls and young women.

We do not make decisions based on presumptions of what people from different cultures may or may not think about any aspect of guiding, the principles it upholds or its policies.
Decisions are based on giving any girl who wishes to attend guiding the option to be part of our wonderful charity. We are open to all girls from all backgrounds and always have been. If this means that some people are not interested in joining Girlguiding, that is their choice*

so, if girls dont want/arent allowed to share with boys, then they should 'choose not to join GG'

"The only issue I see with this new policy is it putting guiding in a negative light. From one guiding sister to another I don't think this discussion is going to be good for guiding (an organisation I absolutely adore). I imagine it's only a matter of time before it's picked up by the dailymail unless it already has."

So talking about the policy will show guiding in a negative light, not the policy itself?

Its not all about sex/abuse/pregnancy...there are so many issues with the policy.

Withholding information from girls and parents, so that they are unable to give informed consent

Not allowing the girls to make decisions about who they share facilities with so that they feel safe and comfortable...which is being sited as a priority for a trans child

Privacy and dignity. Periods, cramps,flooding, circumcision, setting boundaries, having boundaries respected...wet dreams, morning glory.

I have been a leader for a long time. As a Brown Owl and more recently with Guides and Rangers.

I have huge concern with this issue for several reasons.
We have always been a single sex organisation, in gguk' s words "a safe space for girls and young women ". This is allowed in the equality act as an exemption btw.
When asked (the last time in a huge survey of girls and leaders) the overwhelming majority voted to keep it "girls only".
The change in wording from "single sex" to single gender happened at the beginning of 2017, quietly with no discussion.
The safe guarding issues really concern me, especially with self id (where a person just has to say they are the opposite gender to legally become that gender, instead of as now having to go through a two year process including seeing I think two drs and "living" as their new gender, but not necessarily having any surgery or hormone treatments ).
On residentials, at camp or indoors we are not supposed to tell other girls, or their parents, if there is a trans girl going. They will sleep in with the others and use the same facilities if they choose. Often in guide owned places there are only girl and adult facilities, no "men's". Tents and dormitories are shared, not single rooms.
Now I am absolutely not saying that trans girls are in any way bad or wrong, but I can vividly remember being a teenager and putting teenage people of male and female bodies, no matter how they identify, in the same sleeping quarters is just asking for trouble.

As a leader, I also do not want to share my bedroom or tent or the showers with someone who has a male body, however lovely they are.

And no, I don't hate trans people, I think they should have exactly the same rights and protections as everyone- but I do not believe that "trans women are women" or that there is such a thing as a female penis.

I honestly don't see the issue. I'm sure you wouldn't be fussed if there were lesbians in your guiding group and I have seen an issue with a group of predatory lesbians. I don't understand the hate spewed towards transgender on Mumsnet. If you have a transgender girl in your group, they believe they are a girl and should be treated as such. Considering Scouts is mixed sex I'm surprised the Guides haven't followed suit. What if your child identified as trans? I hope you would support them and fight their corner.

@SemaMjinga that is EXACTLY the same repose that I got from GG. Guiders and parents raise valid questions and we cut get and paste answers.

4yearsnosleep...what has this issue got to do with lesbians?? They are girls/women

It does effect lesbians, in that they may be ejected from GG now, if they become too gender non conforming and are deemed to be trans

Really? So getting pregnant is the only issue presented with sexual assault/rape? If you are concerned with the sexual desire/motivation to be around girls for sexual needs then there's definitely a parallel of lesbians being in the group. Guides should be inclusive regardless of sexuality or transgender girls. I don't understand the issue at all and would have no problem with my daughter being around transgender girls or lesbians. Although a moot point as she will be going to Scouts where both genders are welcome. Individuals that believe they are in the wrong body are going through a difficult situation as it is without hate being thrown at them

People with penis’s tend to cause most of the issues, not lesbians. Look at the stats for rape. Ffs

I read the thread in Feminism and the most shocking thing for me was the NSPCCs position that there is no safeguarding issue with physically male young people sharing sleeping accommodation with physically female young people because a trans woman is a woman.

I am just at that.

We all know what can happen if a physically male person and a physically female person have sex, saying it's a female penis doesn't change that. Plus child-on-child sexual abuse does happen.

Please note I am NOT saying that being trans makes you more likely to be abusive, just that clearly there are safeguarding risks that are being ignored, both for the trans child/young person and the other children/young people.

No one hates transgender children, here. That is not what this is about. It is about maintaining female only spaces for girls. The benefits of this are widely known and documentef...even by GG themsrlves

4years, I'm a bit confused. If guides was mixed sex organisation, it wouldn't affect this question of a boy sleeping in among the girls.

Lesbians have nothing to do with it. For all sorts of reasons.

Boys aged up to 14 get erections, wet dreams etc. Why should a girl have to deal with this? Girls have menstrual leaks and so on. Why should they have to deal with that in front of someone who has never, and never will, experience the same?

Why are you so worried about the need of a trans child to sleep in the wrong sex group, instead of the need of a Muslim to sleep in a same sex group?

Children do not identify as trans. Children are boys (some effeminate, some not) and girls (some effeminate, some not).

As my dear old Dad used to say if they're not careful there'll be kittens!

I'm sure that lesbians wouldn't be kicked out unless they decide they are a boy in a girls body. Gender conformity has nothing to do with it. Make guides available to all so that there is no issue.

I worked with a woman who was one of the first to undergo a sex change in the military. She had to battle both policy and attitudes to become female. I believe it's not something anyone would do on a whim, thus I don't understand the hatred towards transgender people. I'm not going to say any more as I've seen how militant people get over this subject on Mumsnet.

4years this was posted on the other thread and explains it well....

"My main objection is not relationships (I’ve also had to deal with code of conduct violations and lesbian outings) but with the loss of freedom from gendered expectations. With all girls, we can discuss the bollocks that is gender freely, openly, and crush the fuck out of it. The girls are free. I don’t think I can run a unit where at least one member is so tied into stereotypes they are attempting to literally embody one. How can I free an entire unit of girls to be who they want to be, when I have to ensure that I am also openly embracing a boy’s right to encroach on their freedoms?
It’s odd, of course. The irony is that by freeing the boy to do exactly what he wants, (which is all good and worthy), I limit the girls. I can’t teach them they have rights and can do anything. I have to teach them to give up ground and make room for men. That men get what they want, even when the girls don’t want it.
That whatever they do, they will always have to give up space for the boys."
I really do think, like Paris Lees and his irritating 'no debate' we have to take a firmer stand on this, we should not have to explain ourselves over and over on this. I think safeguarding is vital, of course, but it's not just that. I think 'WE SAID NO' is valid.

OP I've already had this arise.

I host foreign language students - under 18s, girls only as I have girls myself and the students share a room. Collected one pair last year and one was very obviously a boy with some make up on. Sharing a room with a girl. DH furious as his one proviso is we only host girls as their room next to DDs and our explicit preference had been ignored. Very rude.

The language school teacher went pale as he realised the implications. It was really really awkward and difficult. I had to accept the student but meant I was in breach of the schools reasonable single sex in a room rule. Plus DH was furious. My dds were confused. I felt I would be liable to the girls parents if anything happened. This is happening in real life all you "zzzzzzz" merchants.

kerela

At a recent Ranger weekend, the young women (17-18) were discussing this issue as they arrived .
The consensus was that they liked the fact Rangers is female only, as they could "be as we are with no boys putting pressure on us" and that no, they wouldn't want to share with a trans girl, it would be embarrassing as they would have a male body and it would change the atmosphere.
They are an accepting lot, none of them "hate" trans people, they had a lot of sympathy for them but just wanted to keep their "girl only" space.
Their wants and rights seem to be being totally overlooked in all this.