Calling Tory Voters

[donquixotedelamancha]

Some recent NHS themed threads have me thinking. I wonder whether those who voted Tory at the last election, or the one previously, wouldn't mind giving their oppinions:

1. Do you think that the NHS is in crisis? If so do you want it to receive more money?
2. Was the NHS an important issue for you, when you voted?
3. What do you want to see replace the NHS?
4. Do you intend to vote the same way again? Does this fit with your answers above, or do you feel torn?

A hypotheticated tax for the NHS would severely impact on the poor.
How would it any more than NIC does now? Just keep the thresholds the same. NHS costs roughly what is collected in NIC and if you wanted you just increase the higher rate.

blue do you mean IR 35? Agree that has made s difference so that experienced contractors are quitting. Unfortunately NHS bosses can’t fill that gap. Not s goid situstion either way

PFI started under Major's government. Just saying.
Yes and it was massively expanded under Blair and Brown. Also I'm pretty sure there were minimal (if any) NHS PFI contracts under Major.

Both parties use the NHS as a political football it’s about time there was a cross party committee dealing with the NHS

Completely agree.

It was global but caused by the relaxation in banking regulations that were also global and supported by Brown.

Yup IR35. No point anymore. Strangely other parts of the public sector have taken a less heavy handed approach. I don't know any contractor who will work in the NHS now unless they're desperate.

Again bickering about which party is the supporter of the NHS is fucking stupid!

That’s going to cause it to collapse!

We need a cross party non partisan route and beach reform

BOTH parties were colluding in the banking crisis. BOTH parties have screwed the NHS.

Actually the banking crisis started with the US mortgage market but let's not let the facts get in the way, shall we?

Joey, I disagree with just about everything you've said except that the NHS needs a cross party approach, that's spot on.

The banking crisis was global. The ignorance of some people.

Didn't help that labour had spent years spending so the UK had a deficit to start with so had no choice but to borrow to cover the banks.

blue it’s spreading. Eventually no contractors will work public sector. It will be a problem because the public sector managers don’t seem to be able to do a good job across the board.

Too many high salaries, protected working conditions, easy street lives and un Sakable.

Actually the banking crisis started with the US mortgage market but let's not let the facts get in the way, shall we?
Deregulation of the UK banking sector, under labour and not objected to by the conservative opposition, caused the majority of the issues in the UK banks.
Out of interest do you have to end every post with a passive aggresive note e.g. just saying, The ignorance of some people, let's not let the facts get in the way, shall we? You sound extremely condescending.

Again we agree. The calibre of some of the public sector managers I've worked with has been truly dreadful. Often it's not their fault. They get promoted beyond their capability with no training and then everyone's surprised when they fuck up.

blue

Yes we disagree but I agree the NHS is so wonderful and so important we need to really put this out of the politicians hands or at least have s cross party approach. I think it’s doable snd I think the politicians underestimate the public. I think people would support change and reform

I was a contractor in the NHS. It's no longer the way you describe. There are fixed pay rates, you can no longer get paid via your limited company so get saddled with employers' NI via an umbrella company. My deductions were 40% of my pay. I gave up as it wasn't worth the trouble, most other contractors I know have too.

Ah didums, do you mean you had to pay the same tax as the rest of us and couldn't get your dividends out tax free. If you were on a long term contract you were effectively employed by the NHS so of course you should pay the same tax as everyone else. You were paying employer NI because your employer did not pay it and that was reflected in your salary. Frankly tough shit if you had to pay 40%.
How do you expect the NHS to be paid for if you don't pay your tax.

The banking crisis started in the US, but the fact that it had such a resounding flow-on impact on the UK says it all about the stability of the UK's financial system.

Oh agree totally not their fault. Dh sees it in all areas of the public sector. Most really want to do s good job but they are are not supported by senior menagerie and not trained.

as Thatcher said, "The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money".

Typical Thatcher. Over simplistic sound byte bollocks. Like more recent Tories, using “other people’s money” to bail out her pals in the city was always fine of course. I’d hope the evil old witch was burning in hell if I believed in it. I have never witnessed anyone else so devoid of any decency worshipped by so many.

Ah didums, do you mean you had to pay the same tax as the rest of us and couldn't get your dividends out tax free. If you were on a long term contract you were effectively employed by the NHS so of course you should pay the same tax as everyone else. You were paying employer NI because your employer did not pay it and that was reflected in your salary.Frankly tough shit if you had to pay 40%.
Well said. It grinds my gears that PAYE staff are forced to pay tax while "self employed" contractors work for years in the same industry and pay far less.

On my last contract the (very large) team I was working with was led by someone with no management training whatsoever. Never have I seen so little achieved by so many. There is the odd talented one but they stand out by virtue of their rarity.

Ah didums, do you mean you had to pay the same tax as the rest of us and couldn't get your dividends out tax free.

Dividends are not tax free for company directors. Perhaps you need to gather accurate information before attempting to post insults.

olivia

Hang on. Contractors have no sick pay, no maternity or paternity pay,no pension, if my dh doesn’t work we don’t eat! No safety net apart from insurance that we pay ourselves. Very stressful life to be honest.

Unfortunately you don’t seem to realise that there is a huge huge difference between being self employed and employed.

Yes the benefits of being self employed can be good but the risks you take should be recognised.

Btw I work for the NHS as a nurse since 1983 so no lectures please

I don't believe the public sector can manage anything efficiently.

I've worked in several public and private sector. Both can be effective and both can be shit. I don't really think it's possible to remove all the bloat from big organisations. I think dogmatically saying one or the other is better is simplistic- they are good at different things.

The profit motive is powerful in a market that performs well- public sector coffee shops are a terrible idea. Collective goods like health have high barriers to entry and poor market information. The outcomes we want in the public sector are not necessarily driven effectively by profit.

The tories wouldn't dare to disband / privatise the NHS despite the tabloid hyperbole.

I'm not sure this is true. I think in 5 years time it may be too late. I see it moving towards an American system, with some kind of core NHS as a safety net. I cannot see this working well.

Some thing similar to the German system, health insurance replaces national insurance which those that work pay into and subsidise those that can't pay.

Of all the alternative systems, the German one attracts me the most. I do think our NHS is (or perhaps has been) a hell of a lot better than people give it credit for.

PFI started under Major's government. Just saying.

I didn't know this. It stuns me that it has been the policy of successive governments for so long, and continues to be. Scrapping it is one of Corbyn's policies that I am attracted to.

NHS is a political football that you are perpetuating. Sorry?

As other posters have said a lot of todays problems with the NHS and housing can be laid at the feet of Labour, now whether you count that as not true labour or not, that is up to you.

Why would I care what the 'true' Labour party is? Not a party member, only voted for them twice at general elections.

I do think it's a bit pointless when some posters say that it's all Tony Blair's fault. I didn't like him and didn't vote for him, but I'm not sure he's the great satan some make out and he's been gone a while.

But to try and insinuate that Tory voters all want to see the end of the NHS is not only childish but also lacking in any real political and critical thinking.

I insinuate nothing. I'm asking a question. Clearly lots of people do want to see another model in place.

It certainly is a goady thread. Yep. It is. Got a nice chat going didn't it.

Those who advocate for letting the banks fail don't seem to understand the gravity of such a decision.

President Bush and Hank Paulson were staunch neoliberals, but even they were not prepared to follow their ideology to the decimation of their country's financial system (and, by extension, the decimation of the global economy). The Great Depression would have had nothing on such a collapse.

Initially, they bailed out particular banks (i.e. Bear Stearns), which failed first. They extended a line of credit to the Fannie and Freddie, and backed the acquisition of failing companies. They did this under the impression that the information other banks (i.e. Lehman, Citi etc) were giving out was accurate: that they just needed to raise a bit more capital and they'd be fine. It wasn't until 6-ish months later that it became apparent that the CEOs and CFOs of those companies were beyond the point of simple capital recovery, and it was then that Bush etc. had to make the decision of whether to bail them out, or to let them fail along neoliberal principles and bear the ensuing financial disaster.

Even Thatcher and Reagan would likely have stepped back from their ideology in this instance.

Blue I think you must know dh! He’s said exactly the same.