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Adult males can now shower with girls at swimming pools

488 replies

TheXXFactor · 06/02/2018 12:15

Swim England has issued new guidance about trans swimmers - link here. Some of it is sensible- I'm sure trans people can feel self-conscious swimming, so trans-only sessions are a good idea (though of course trans people should be able to use the pool at other times too).

What's disturbing though is the section on Environment, which says that trans people should use whichever changing room they prefer. 85% of men who identify as trans have had no surgery, so this means adult men showering & changing with women and girls. How can this be allowed under child safeguarding rules? And what about all the women who will feel unable to swim if they have to change with men - or whose religion does not allow them to do so?

AIBU to think that everyone's needs & comfort should have been considered?

OP posts:
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8
SJE29 · 08/02/2018 12:35

I agree!

Myunicornfliessideways · 08/02/2018 12:40

Why is the TRA lobby not fighting for their rights, too?

Interestingly, you will find that Transmen are almost invisible in the TRA agendas and information. When challenged on this recently, a leading TRA group member said that there was no time to think about transmen due to responding to the needs and arguments around transwomen. However when everyone backed off and gave them time, they would start working on tampon machines in mens toilets.

That was it. That was the whole extent of their vision for transmen.

That tells you absolutely everything you need to know about who is leading this movement and what it is about. And how sad it is that the huge numbers of teenaged girls trying to identify out of having to be women in the UK in 2018 (with no one questioning why) are still just as silenced, unconsidered and unrepresented as any other biological females.

Lovelyusername · 08/02/2018 12:40

There are a LOT of swimming groups they are affiliated with. Will check my region. Maybe contacting our local swim schools to ask about the policy is also a good idea.

www.swimming.org/swimengland/tag/affiliated-swim-school-directory/

SuitedandBooted · 08/02/2018 12:54

Why is the TRA lobby not fighting for their rights, too?

"Interestingly, you will find that Transmen are almost invisible in the TRA agendas and information. When challenged on this recently, a leading TRA group member said that there was no time to think about transmen due to responding to the needs and arguments around transwomen. However when everyone backed off and gave them time, they would start working on tampon machines in mens toilets.

That was it. That was the whole extent of their vision for transmen"

Don't forget the VERY specific provisions preventing Transmen from having certain inheritance rights. Can't have those pesky woman getting titles, and sitting in the House of Lords!

NaturalWoman · 08/02/2018 13:59

The bottom line is that, as many of us have been saying for a while, and some of those for very much longer (I'm pretty new to this), that this isn't about trans rights. It's about men's rights. But biological men's rights. So just 'identifying' as a man isn't enough to make you important.

When the TRAs look at a transman, they see a woman.

Elendon · 08/02/2018 14:13

When the TRAs look at a transman, they see a woman.

Yes and it's appropriated to include the boring and never ending transwomen are women and they can give birth.

Datun · 08/02/2018 14:27

If the definition of transgender had remained firmly with transsexual men who have gender dysphoria, we may not have had this problem.

They are generally not attracted to women, many have surgery and they're not politically motivated.

But the men who have hijacked the narrative have had the official definition from Stonewall, changed to include cross dressing fetishists. They may have had hormones to create breasts, but they need their penis in order to get aroused by said breasts. Many are attracted to women, hence the persecution of lesbians. A double whammy, because it's the sex they are attracted to and the description of lesbian will validate their own 'womanhood'. Hence lady penis, girl dick.

So even before you start on regular predators, you have an entire cohort who will demand access to female spaces purely because it turns them on. As does the lack of consent from women.

Then add misogynistic men and/or predators to that mix.

Who have suddenly realised that they require zero modification, either to their anatomy or their clothes, in order to identify as women.

Men who would previously have spent decades building up a reputation in children's organisations, the clergy, teaching, healthcare, in order to groom and victims, can now just walk into any space containing women and children. Partially dressed, and vulnerable.

Then you have those, of which there are so very many, who just make a point of letting women know how they can dominate them.

Travis of Topshop fame, whose best friend calls children kinky and deviant, for instance. Not giving a toss that people could read all about that on the Internet, he asserted his entitlement to dominate and got topshop to change their fitting room policy, to allow him access.

Or the men who targeted a tiny vegan restaurant, because it was run by lesbians. They garnered support to leave hundreds and hundreds of one star reviews. Thereby ruining the business.

Or the man who targeted the women run on-line bra shop for adolescent girls. Complaining that the language was exclusionary because men wear bras.

Or the man who took on Hampstead women's pond, demanding access to that one, despite there being one for men and one unisex.

Those are just a tiny percentage of examples. There are loads.

The recent example being to allow men to identify as women and become rape crisis/Women's Aid counsellors. Which made me feel a bit sick because there were threads on here last year from women who answer rape crisis helplines. Who on a regular basis, have to deal with men, pretending to be women who had been raped, and fetishising it down the phone to them.

It happened so frequently, they could recognise it within 10 seconds of the beginning of the call.

This isn't about a handful of people.
This is a concerted effort to target every single thing that is predominantly by, or for, women and girls and bring it down. If they can't bring it down they will join it and take it over.

All under the guise of inclusivity and progression.

TerfyMcTerface · 08/02/2018 14:27

Yes and it's appropriated to include the boring and never ending transwomen are women and they can give birth.

Has anyone explained yet how they can give birth? I was somewhat baffled when I heard this a few weeks ago, and still none the wiser. Am I missing something?

Datun · 08/02/2018 14:37

TerfyMcTerface

There was a click bait article published, that claimed men being able to gestate a baby was a mere few decades away.

it didn't go into where the mem would get the womb, obviously because that would have to come from a woman. All the other myriad problems of blood supply and rejection drugs. And also neglected to mention it's entirely illegal in this country to even try.

So transactivists now say they stand as much chance of getting pregnant as any other woman who isn't currently ovulating.

Much along the same lines as me saying I stand as much chance of flying, as bird who is walking along the grass. Because the science doesn't currently allow me to fly, but surely it's only a question of time.

OvaHere · 08/02/2018 14:37

Terfy I had an argument online with some loon who asserted that with a decade doctors would be able to fully biologically transition someone so even a chromosome test wouldn't detect a difference.

Funnily enough they couldn't explain how and why should they because I'm just a nazi who wants to persecute trans people like Jews Hmm

Alwaysinmyheart · 08/02/2018 15:14

I've emailed my MP, I urge you all to do the same, he's Labour so don't know how receptive he will be but I feel better for having done something.

GatoradeMeBitch · 08/02/2018 16:10

The Daily Mail still won't let more people comment on this - only 3 posts, over 24 hours ago!

And note how the comments are ambiguous - they could be responding to the backlash or the guidelines. Not like the DM to be so squeamish!

Datun · 08/02/2018 17:00

The Spectator has written an excellent, reasonable article about the issue of self identification.

And they have linked directly to this Mumsnet thread.

For anyone who feels that a name change might be in order.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3162898-https-blogs-spectator-co-uk-2018-02-can-we-have-an-honest-debate-about-gender

confusednotcom2 · 08/02/2018 17:18

Good article, MN has opened my eyes to the issue. It’s crazy that in 2018 women are still being told to shut up & put up. We are what 49% of the population, why do we have to take this shit?

SweetheartNeckline · 08/02/2018 17:30

51% confused. The majority!!

It's amazing the amount of gaslighting, faux ingenuity and outright lies present in this debate. A balanced, factual article like this should help.

The writer will pay for it on a personal level, though. Maybe needs to turn Twitter's push notifications off tonight! Grin

confusednotcom2 · 08/02/2018 17:39

How can a majority hold such little power?

Hellothereitsme · 08/02/2018 18:05

Centre parcs have male and female sections and family/ mixed sections. I went into the female section and part of it was an open room with a door into it with benches around it. There were no cubicles. I would not want to get changed in there with a man or a transgender. I would feel 100% vulnerable.

No1IronGirderRS · 08/02/2018 18:25

I'm sorry to ask again, but in case you didn't see my post earlier Myunicornfliessideways would you have any further info on the teen girl and the TIM in Canada. I'm trying to compile as much as I can for what is happening in Canada as many of us have had no idea about all of this mess. I appreciate everything that posters have been exposing about what is happening in Canada. If anyone has any other links I would very much appreciate it.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone think that going after the education system/government re: our 'miseducation' might make the powers that be wake up? Ex if someone is sued for hate speech etc. Bear with me as I don't have it clearly worked out but... we are now being told that what we know about biology is completely wrong to the point we can be threatened with job loss etc. We are also being told that simple words can be considered hate speech. Now our education systems taught us what we know. So therefore if someone gets accused of using these incorrect words/facts of biology, can they not turn around and sue the education system for having taught this. I know this is prob far fetched, but I think I'm clutching at straws for things to show the government how ridiculous this all isAngry

OvaHere · 08/02/2018 18:39

No1IronGirderRS

Not sure if you saw this one already

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3156012-Canada-to-allow-inmates-to-be-housed-according-to-identity

No1IronGirderRS · 08/02/2018 19:15

Thank you @OvaHere! I had heard the story, but I didn't have the link. I've added it to my pile.

Yes, it is insanity. We had Fallon Aubee, a fully intact male and MURDERER of 19 people, transferred to a woman's prison in accordance with his right and freedom to self-id as a woman. It makes my blood boil!!

I've never been particularly sympathetic to criminals, but it is vile that vulnerable women who are stuck in jail and can not leave, get to have this monster showering with them and invading all their spaces. And our wonderful JT is doing the happy dance and celebrating that Canada is so progressive and inclusiveEnvy=not envy.

niceandtoasty · 08/02/2018 20:07

One women's spa in Canada (which allows nude bathing) introduced a 'no male genitals' rule so transwomen who had had surgery and transmen who still had a vagina could attend but no one with a penis (regardless of gender identity) was allowed.

Predictably, this is regarded as a hate crime and human rights abuse:

www.thestar.com/life/2017/06/16/trans-community-speaks-out-against-body-blitz-women-only-spa.html

OvaHere · 08/02/2018 20:13

Yes, it is insanity. We had Fallon Aubee, a fully intact male and MURDERER of 19 people, transferred to a woman's prison in accordance with his right and freedom to self-id as a woman. It makes my blood boil!!

That is just Shock

I've never been particularly sympathetic to criminals, but it is vile that vulnerable women who are stuck in jail and can not leave, get to have this monster showering with them and invading all their spaces. And our wonderful JT is doing the happy dance and celebrating that Canada is so progressive and inclusiveenvy=not envy.

I've never taken a lot of notice of Canadian politics or JT to be honest but I saw something the other week (not sure how verifiable it was) about him wearing Islamic socks to a gay pride event. I was a bit Hmm given how many gay men are killed in Islamic countries for the crime of being gay.

It seemed like similar cognitive dissonance to the TRAs vs women issue.

No1IronGirderRS · 08/02/2018 20:19

OMG this makes me nauseous.

“You don’t get to be uncomfortable. It’s not about you. This is an act of hate.” --WHAT? Having a spa for women is an act of hate?!

I note that they have ONLY trans commenting on the article, nothing from women, and they all have their abilities listed i.e. model, actor, athlete, IT specialist.

Also why do they HAVE to go to that particular spa that has women naked when there are tons of spas that don't have nudity. Just more of this trying to make arguments and push into women's spaces. And dammit, they are getting away with itSad

No1IronGirderRS · 08/02/2018 20:20

Sorry meant to say thank you to niceandtoasty for the link!

No1IronGirderRS · 08/02/2018 20:24

Wow, I hadn't seen that one OvaHere, he is embarrassing and so incredibly naive ( or is it deliberate?! ). I can't believe he is running a whole country, it makes me want to weep.

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