Adult males can now shower with girls at swimming pools

[TheXXFactor]

Swim England has issued new guidance about trans swimmers - link here. Some of it is sensible- I'm sure trans people can feel self-conscious swimming, so trans-only sessions are a good idea (though of course trans people should be able to use the pool at other times too).

What's disturbing though is the section on Environment, which says that trans people should use whichever changing room they prefer. 85% of men who identify as trans have had no surgery, so this means adult men showering & changing with women and girls. How can this be allowed under child safeguarding rules? And what about all the women who will feel unable to swim if they have to change with men - or whose religion does not allow them to do so?

AIBU to think that everyone's needs & comfort should have been considered?

Tbh, the only way that the general public (and most MPs) will think about the ramifications of this is if they have to experience the consequences of it. I’d imagine public opinion will shift quickly if auntie Mabel has to shower naked with bearded people with penises who say they’re women every time she goes swimming.

And obviously if TIMs are allowed in the female showers naked, then I don’t see why TIFs should be forced to cover up their chests. It’s a very telling double standard.

I am quickly learning my opinion as a woman means very little

Accepting trangenders is one thing. However tippy toeing around them and putting people's safety at risk is very very
much another.

OMG it is so poorly written and full of contradictions.

It says you have to allow a pre opp transwoman (a man with a fucking penis) to use the communal female changing rooms and showers if they want.

However, if a pre-opp transman (woman with breasts) wants to swim without a top - that isn't allowed because "you wouldn’t allow a woman to swim topless in a public session, and you need to treat everyone the same."

Why the hell is it OK for a man with a penis to shower with women and girls, but it isn't OK for a women with tits to swim with them on show? Either we are ignoring the biological reality (tits, penis) or we aren't. You can't have it both ways.

It's not a rule change though, it's guidelines, which are enforceable under law. It will be up to different leisure centres to adopt those guidelines. My local leisure centre is connected to an all girls school and I doubt very much it will be implementing these guidelines.

Quite frankly there is a safeguarding issue here which has nothing to do with women exposing their breasts.

Sorry that should be not enforceable under law.

I expect most swimming pools will change over to unisexchanging villages, if they haven't done so already. I use a pool like this, as far as I'm aware there haven't been any problems so far. Though for some reason the cubicles have a gap at the top and bottom. I don't really like this so I try and get an end cubicle and keep my eyes open when I'm getting showered. Swimming is very important for my physical and mental health, so I put up with it. There are properly enclosed rooms for school groups to use, fortunately.
Sarahjconnor thats disgusting that the police only cautioned this guy for filming a 2 year old. He should have been charged.

But your vote counts for exactly the same as a mans. Once enough women are prepared to put this at the top of their political agendas we can use democracy to challenge it. That's one advantage of women not being a minority.

Our local pool is a fully mixed changing room, as are most around here. Individual cubicles so no naked butts anywhere.

What are these "safeguarding rules" you mention?

"AIBU to think that everyone's needs & comfort should have been considered?"

I assume you mean 'womens' not everyone's.

Thanks for this thread though. There were only 3 trans threads on the page. Phew!

Male power and privilege in action.

Our pool has a general area for showers when you get out. You go through it to get to the general changing rooms. There are family changing rooms too. Nobody flaunts themselves. It's all shapes and sizes and ages. You get a quick blast of hot water to wash chlorine off keeping your costume on; maybe wash your hair. Then go and get changed in your private space. Not that difficult.

Our opinion as 'cis' women mean very little, even if those women happen to be transitioning to live life as a male.

Because we're 'cis' we get no-platformed. Any reasonable critique or worries on safeguarding get branded as "actual violence" against the trans community, hate speech and we're TERFs who deny their right to exist even if (like me) we believe wholeheartedly in their rights to protection both legal and societal and validity in their own oppression but do not believe they are identical to women.

It's a subject I'm relatively new to but quickly passionate about. We shouldn't be further oppressing an already oppressed sex and gender in order to appease a minority of men who choose to live as women. We should coexist but remain very aware to the social and legal implications of female erasure.

I wish the pool DS2 has swimming club at had a unisex changing village. That way I’d be able to hurry him up when changing afterwards. As it is I just have to sit and wait. I don’t think they will though, as it’s a Victorian building and it would probably be prohibitively expensive to convert it.

We shouldn't be further oppressing an already oppressed sex and gender in order to appease a minority of men who choose to live as women. We should coexist but remain very aware to the social and legal implications of female erasure.

Hear hear

This doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. The relatively new swimming pool I use has a communal changing village with cubicles, and private or communal showers, depending on what you prefer. Seem absolutely zero man dicks since we started going.

YANBU

The insidious thing about this is the steady erosion of consent for women and girls.

If girls are no longer allowed to object to male bodies in changing rooms etc, how will they ever have the confidence or personal authority to assert consent when it comes to sexual relationships?

Why does nobody in authority see this?

None of the pools round here have single sex changing. The showers are fully public in view of the pool and you're not supposed to take your swimmers off in them. Individual cubicles for changing. It's the way forward IMO, nobody gets offended.

Our pool has a general area for showers when you get out. You go through it to get to the general changing rooms.

Lucky you.

Lots of changing rooms ARE communal and there is one for M and one for F. Spare a thought for pool users who do not have access to unisex facilities.

None of the pools round here have single sex changing

Both gyms with pools near me have communal changing.

It is becoming the norm nowadays.

The minority rule rules.

Whether it is gender, race or religion, the minorities are gaining ground.

Won't be long before being 'normal' will be outlawed.

As PurpleTraitor say there are many pools now which just have changing rooms and showers - which suits me much more having male and female children.

I think given that and fact many female changing rooms won’t have an issue till they suddenly do it’s going to be one of those things that will blindside some women who’ll then find they can’t complain.

So it will be one of those thing that most can ignore till you find only pool you can use has female changing rooms that suddenly find you have to deal with pensis that aren't discreetly covered in them- and at that point expect everyones flabber will be gasted that it's allowed and women find they have option of dealing with it or not swimming.

YANBU

This doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. The relatively new swimming pool I use has a communal changing village with cubicles, and private or communal showers, depending on what you prefer. Seem absolutely zero man dicks since we started going.

People behave very differently in unisex communal changing (where everyone is in cubicals) and when it’s a single sex changing room
(often with very few cubicals).

Lots of changing rooms ARE communal and there is one for M and one for F. Spare a thought for pool users who do not have access to unisex facilities

Plus, many people with skin conditions need to have a proper shower.

Plus again there have been many instances where women and children have been photographed, filmed or assaulted in unisex spaces.

The issue is not just with this individual issue. It's a pathway to more of the same in schools, public toilets and general women's spaces that safeguard the sexes. For instance, Women's Aid are now thinking (or may have already done it) of allowing self identified women in to women's only shelters.

Self ID is a dangerous concept for everyone, not just for women. Sure, it may not be abused and everyone who uses it may be genuinely trans and just want to live as their preferred gender but there's a massive chance that may not be the case.

Trans Rights Activists are horrible to 'cis' women unless you're bowing down before them agreeing with every minute detail. People can't discuss periods or female genital mutilation as it offends and excludes trans women who can't menstruate and don't have a vagina. Not all women and all that.

The more this becomes mainstream the more it's accepted and the bigger issues slip through.