Adult males can now shower with girls at swimming pools

[TheXXFactor]

Swim England has issued new guidance about trans swimmers - link here. Some of it is sensible- I'm sure trans people can feel self-conscious swimming, so trans-only sessions are a good idea (though of course trans people should be able to use the pool at other times too).

What's disturbing though is the section on Environment, which says that trans people should use whichever changing room they prefer. 85% of men who identify as trans have had no surgery, so this means adult men showering & changing with women and girls. How can this be allowed under child safeguarding rules? And what about all the women who will feel unable to swim if they have to change with men - or whose religion does not allow them to do so?

AIBU to think that everyone's needs & comfort should have been considered?

But there are dog free beaches. I always choose those over beaches dogs are allowed on. To continue the analogy.

I would always choose biological women only spaces and services.

My DH has come up with a good point with regards Swim Englan's approach, are they just trying to pave the way to allow transwomen into women swim teams to have/ retain the competitive edge especially if other nations are going that way?

Having tiptoed around the edges of elite sport with one of our children it would not be surprising as there is little care for the individual , it's all about the result.

I'm not sure that comparing men to dogs is very useful. Like, at all.

My DH has come up with a good point with regards Swim Englan's approach, are they just trying to pave the way to allow transwomen into women swim teams to have/ retain the competitive edge especially if other nations are going that way?

Dd is already competing against a biological male who identifies as female. The ASA have had a policy for a while which allows ot.

Sports is an ideal target for mediocre men to transition and then win in the female competitions. Loads of examples of that already.

Many people who are interested in sports tend to follow maybe only one or two. And even then might not realise that there are males identifying as females. I would have thought, though, it's probably more obvious in swimming competitions.

I've thought for a while that the only way this country is going to fully realise the absurdity is when a bloke wins the Ladies' Singles at Wimbledon.

Well clearly a section of the world has gone bonkers!

And even then might not realise that there are males identifying as females. I would have thought, though, it's probably more obvious in swimming competitions.

Not as obvious as you’d think. Put a girls swim suit on and most will assume girl without thinking.

The kid dd competes against could probably get away with nobody knowing up to about age 13 or 14- there are still girls who haven’t quite hit puberty at this age and/or are still flat chested. So far up to age 10 a prepubescent boy with long hair in a girls costume and nobody even thinks to question it. You need to know your anatomy to see the skeletal differences.

I don’t agree with it but let’s not pretend all men are sexual predators that we need segregating from either please.

I don't think anyone is pretending that. However, enough men are sexual predators, and enough people (both men and women) want privacy from the other sex when in states of undress..that we have sex segregated areas. Which should remain sex segregated.

I usually swim at my local Bannatynes. It has a large gym aswell as a pool and spa type area. In the changing rooms, there are 2 cubicles. The rest is all open plan. I dont know if all Bannatynes are like this? Anyway, I would be massively uncomfortable getting changed in the open plan bit infront of an adult man. In all honesty I don't really like getting changed infront of women but I can deal with that. I could not deal with a man, no matter what he thought he was in his head and no matter what his intentions in there. I would wait however long for the cubicle(there are often queues for them even with only women there, if men were there they would be even longer!) and then never go back there, if I did see a bloke in there.

I have in the past used mixed sex changing rooms, and as long as they are proper cubicles thats fine by me. I just do not think that in female only areas, male people should be there. Noone expects when using a womens open plan changing room that a man is just going to waltz in, nor should they, as it should not be allowed.

Though I would personally be fine with a post op trans person. But I would think, that people like that would want privacy even more than I do so wold wait half an hour for the changing cubicle to be free.

Thanks Micah. As I rarely watch sports, I was thinking of national/international/Olympics; I hadn't thought about the path from child to adult. Once puberty kicks in, a male naturally has a physical advantage over a female. But if that boy was already identified as a girl from pre-puberty, then he can carry on being regarded as a "female".

But what on earth are the parents thinking? There's a disconnect that I can't figure out. Someone gives birth to a boy, then later enters him into competitions as a girl?

I feel the same as Boat. I stopped going to our local pool when it changed to unisex changing area.

The problem is it will take a very brave women or group of women to stand up to this and be a figurehead. You say anything against trans and you are shouted down saying you are bigoted or hate trans people. I can’t see this stopping anytime soon,

As I said in my first post, I am a Team Manager at a swimming club with around 70 girls. I am utterly astonished that Swim England are using the propaganda that Stonewall has provided, which doesn't touch on the self-identifying issue in any meaningful way.

As a team manager, I have to be DBS checked, attend courses on correct procedures, Child Welfare and Safeguarding. It is mandatory. Yet now I am supposed to stand by, and let men watch the girls get changed, in deference to their "Lady Feelings?!!

Please email Swim England with your concerns:

www.swimming.org/swimengland/swim-england-contacts/

and please ask them how they expect me to protect my teams from "women" like these;

transcrimeuk.com/

I am all for trans people and people should do as they please however when it comes to these situations where women and girls are changing etc it is absolutely disgusting! Scares me that it is even a discussion that fully grown men would be allowed to change/shower around women and girls

See page 13 on this thread. The Daily Mail is STILL not allowing any additional comments on this article;

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5357509/Swim-England-guidance-trans-swimmers-slammed.html

It has clearly upset the Trans cheer-leaders

Bump

We need men to start kicking off against this. Women can kick off all they like and they will be ignored and classed as hysterical and phobic. Men need to start speaking up. This will affect their wives and daughters, sisters, mothers and friends. Its sad that it will take men speaking up rather than women just being listened to, but I do think this is whats needed.

Its also interesting about the Tories backtracking on self ID, I do wonder if its because of the DUP, or because they can sense the tide turning on this issue. Hopefully they are listening to the hundreds (maybe thousands) of women (and some men) who are sending letters, emails and going to personal meetings about thing.

It has to come to a head soon surely. Its just getting more and more ridiculous by the day. I wonder what it will be tomorrow, given changing rooms and single sex refuges have been hit.

@Myunicornfliessideways I'm only on page 11, but could you please tell me if you have a link or any further info on the comment you made regarding a teenage girl (as tested) in Canada.

I'm very late to this party, there is almost no info in our news (just small independent companies). I have friends and family who are news hounds and they have not heard of any of this. I was spending Dec sympathizing with the UK about what I was reading on MN (I was brand new to MN). Then to my shock I discovered (also through MN) everything had already been happening here (Bill C16, deadnames banned in the media, cotton ceiling talks at planned parenthood, prisoner transfer, male dominatrix at women's march, sexual assault at women's refuge, etc). Thank you so much to all the posters who keep posting great arguments, links and info! @Datun your well laid out posts and links have helped get me up to speed and to 'PEAK'.

We have four trans friends who I also worry that this will negatively impact, so I speak for them as well as women. I'm not at all phobic, but I am terrified what kind of risk this is to vulnerable people. I can't understand how those who blow it off can't see that it is an ideal situation for predators and they will (and have) take advantage of these new laws.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned (I've been reading hours of posts and links), but the way our government has handled this, any crimes perpetrated by TIMs will be regarded as female crimes, so the reporting and the stats will be skewed. So reading the news that a woman sexually assaulted another woman will be taken as such, and the public will have no idea of the reality.

Apologies for the long rant (my first), I just can't get my head around the fact that ( supposedly ) rational intelligent adults running our country are making these kinds of decisions.

I'm male and so clearly against this. Anyone with a penis goes nowhere near a females safe-spaces imo. I've been emailing my MP recently about this.

I also have a pansexual 18yo DD who sees no problem with any of this, we have many exciting debates....I'm no transphobe.

I shall be sending more email...

Thank you SteX!

@PidgeonPodge I've been reading your posts. You're awesome!

Just saw this on Twitter. Chilling

IF you are on Twitter and want to see more examples of this dangerous nonsense just type in #peaktrans. If you’re not aware of how insidious and dangerous to women this ideology is, you will have your eyes opened!

@Alwaysinmyheart That is indeed chilling! It's already happened where I'm at.

It keeps breaking my heart when I read posters on MN saying that Canada has embraced this madness. Honestly, I keep talking to people about this and no one had heard anything about it. It seems to be our incredibly liberal leaders who just went ahead, and the media seems to be keeping pretty mum. For the rest of us, we may be a ( mostly- ) liberal country, but we're not insane.

I hope the rest of you manage to halt this BS in its tracks, sadly I think we are already so far down the rabbit hole in Canada that it's going to be really difficult to backtrack (if that is even ever going to be an option).

That’s horrible always.
Disgustingly sickening.
I don’t swim and I don’t gym but I still feel concerned about what is happening.
I just think back to being in hospital over 35 years ago with a bad bout of pneumonia and was fast asleep in a private room at 6-30 am and this male patient entered my room slapped me on my ( covered) backside and asked if I wanted a cup of tea.
I was horrified and felt so vulnerable.
I’d buried that one!

I mailed Swim England to complain.

It’s a wilful ignorance of the fact that no one can tell the difference between a sexual predator and a trans woman. But that this isn’t mentioned in their guidelines, it’s all about how to educate / groom women into accepting a penis in their changing rooms.

The fact that if one transwomen wants to use the the single sex swimming session, the other women just have to accept it. No room given for their concerns. You know, with male against female violence stats and the fact that transwomen commit crimes like men do.

Is it worth starting a carefully worded petition? Why do women have to move over for the transwomen ?