Adult males can now shower with girls at swimming pools

[TheXXFactor]

Swim England has issued new guidance about trans swimmers - link here. Some of it is sensible- I'm sure trans people can feel self-conscious swimming, so trans-only sessions are a good idea (though of course trans people should be able to use the pool at other times too).

What's disturbing though is the section on Environment, which says that trans people should use whichever changing room they prefer. 85% of men who identify as trans have had no surgery, so this means adult men showering & changing with women and girls. How can this be allowed under child safeguarding rules? And what about all the women who will feel unable to swim if they have to change with men - or whose religion does not allow them to do so?

AIBU to think that everyone's needs & comfort should have been considered?

headinhands
The NHS allows people to ask for a same sex HCP for intimate examinations / care. That is recognised as reasonable.
Would you honestly want a man with a sexual fetish for being seen of as a woman, (ie an autogynephile) conducting your smear test or mammogram?

headinhands my understanding is that you can object to a male nurse carrying out a smear test. Many women won't have a problem with that and that is fine, but some will for a wide range of reasons including their religious beliefs.

You will not be able to object to a man with a penis who self ids as a woman from changing in a women only changing room. That would be bigoted and you need to 'be educated' (Swim England) wording - no matter your reason for objection.

sorry rowdy cross post.

Headinhands

Please keep your views coming. I doubt they are having the effect you hope or intend thrm to have.

Right.

So even if we pretend that there is no risk, I should be made to feel uncomfortable changing next to other people because someone else with a penis thinks his right to change next to me trumps my right not to be made uncomfortable by said penis when I am naked and vulnerable??

You're on another planet. I just wish it were much, much, much further away from this one!

I'm not hoping or intending anything. Just musing. The ad hom stuff is a shame. Explain a position with facts, focusing on what the imagined character of the person holding a differing view does nothing.

I wasn't launching any ad hom attack headinhands . I agree it's completely unhelpful

I did state the fact that many MenidentifyingasTrans have autogynephilia ( a sexual fetish) and asked if you would be happy with them conducting a smear test or mammogram on you? Would you?

I had a smear and it was a male nurse. Should I have objected
Why are you asking us? It's your choice . If you're happy with that nurse then don't object.

Facts have been explained headinhands. Your position seems to be 'well I'm not bothered so why should you be'. Which shows you don't really acknowledge the issue that many women might have.

There are no male and female changing areas at the three pools we go to anyway. There are just changing areas. And showers. I feel like I’m missing something.

Surely this is the most sensible option. Individual/family changing rooms. Where I swim there's communal unisex showers (and signs saying you have to remain clothed) and individual changing rooms.

It opens the way generally though - hospitals, prisons etc.

Once you do away with the principle of sex segregationin one area, then you lose it for all areas. Once socially and legally the answer is sex segregation is not necessary for eg teenage girls taking their clothes off, then why is it necessary on hospital wards etc

well my local swimming pool is unisex. Men and women use the same changing rooms and showers. I don't like it at all.

Our pool has a unisex changing room with cubicles (including wheelchair accessible & Family & even baby change ones) & showers

I think it's a good move for everyone - no angst about who changes where, boys swimming with mums or girls with Dad, families can change together if they want or if you need assistance there is room for whoever you need to help , and whatever you identify as you can change in privacy & with dignity.

then why is it necessary on hospital wards etc

I am convinced that I read that women's outcomes on mixed wards were much worse than on single sex wards. Did I imagine that? It certainly wouldn't surprise me one jot if that were the case

If you don't mind me asking, what don't you like about them Boat?

I didn't dream it.

For once the Grauniad defends women only spaces

UpABitLate - I think that's an important point.

Just because it won't be a problem in some swimming pools, doesn't mean that it should be no problem in all swimming pools.

Just because it isn't a problem for some people, doesn't mean that it should be no problem for all people.

And, as you say, once some organisations accept transwomen in women's places, it'll be very easy to make it ok in all women's places. And I do worry about NHS wards, because it'll be cheaper to not have single-sex wards/bays.

Trouble is how are women supposed to be able to distinguish between a genuine trans woman and a pervert who likes to dress up in women's clothes? It's like being scared of all dogs once you have been bitten by one.

I realky think the government are going to have to tighten up and extend biological protections in certain areas.

I don't like them because i feel awkward getting dressed with a man in the next cubicle, getting my stuff out of the locker in a towel with men wondering around. I don't want to shower next to men or use the loos next to men. It just makes me feel uncomfortable.

boats - me neither. But then I'm not that happy getting changed in all women communal changing rooms either. In both cases I know that I need to suck it up, as the problem is my prudish upbringing mine and it's well within the norms of our society to expect women to change in front of other women, or in a locked single person cubicle.

But there's no way that I am going to pretend that I'm cool with getting changed in front of a man. Not a chance. And neither should I have to.

I was at a major train station today and went to the loo. There was a big queue (as there always is) so I did a bit of observation while I waited for a toilet. Lots of women were coming out of loos and then adjusting the way they looked before the next leg of their journey. There was clothing adjustments, applying make up and doing hair. There was, because we were all women in a women only space, a camaraderie that transcended language barriers.

It really isn't just about peeing (quite apart from the creepy thing I read on twitter about a bloke who gets off on spreading his spunk onto loo paper so that women wipe themselves with it).

I’m perfectly happy with my local swimming pool which is one unisex changing area with lockable door cubicles in it. No problem with sharing that space with men at all.

The changing rooms at the gym are a different story as it’s an open space with no cubicles. I don’t want to be stripping off there in front of men.

creepy thing I read on twitter about a bloke who gets off on spreading his spunk onto loo paper so that women wipe themselves with it

OMFG

Trouble is how are women supposed to be able to distinguish between a genuine trans woman and a pervert who likes to dress up in women's clothes? It's like being scared of all dogs once you have been bitten by one.

It is a bit like that, but the answer in tha case wouldn't be to ban dogs from public places. Although saying that there are probably people who do want dogs banned from public places.

The changing rooms at the gym are a different story as it’s an open space with no cubicles. I don’t want to be stripping off there in front of men.

I wouldn't go anywhere without cubicles unisex or not. I suppose it's fairly usual in some places on the continent, but I'm far too prudish for that!