To not understand exclusion from school

[witchofzog]

This is a genuine question so perhaps aibu is not the right place but I just don't get it as it often punishes parents more than dc's. I get that for pupils who are particularly disruptive they need to be removed for a period of time so other pupils dont suffer but then surely isolation or a period of detentions would be more effective (though of course I know these then need to be staffed)

I say this because of dsd's school. She was excluded during the summer for 2 days and spent it sunbathing on her mum's new patio furniture. She was laughing about it saying it was like a mini holiday. 2 of her friends were also excluded. One of whom spent the exclusion in a similar way and one of whose parents took away all privileges and made sure it was a pretty boring couple of days, which is what I think should be done. I know the onus is on the parents to re-inforce correct behaviour in their dc's but at the same time, exclusions happen from year 7 where pupils sometimes are 11 or 12 which is very young to be left alone all day and could result in the parent having to take time off work therefore potentially jeopardizing their jobs.

I was just wondering what others thought about exclusions and whether they feel there could be a better way and if so what that might be?

One of the main points about exclusion is that it generally goes on your school record, and is part of a process which would eventually lead to permanent exclusion of behaviour doesn’t improve. It can have an impact on uni admissions etc in that case. Obviously many children see it as a nice holiday from school but it can have longer term repercussions.

It should be difficult for the parent, so they are motivated to work with child and school to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

Day exclusions are not common. Vast majority of students will never be excluded.

Plus the point is that the pupil’s behaviour is unacceptable for the society of the school and therefore they are removed from that society for a short time - for the school’s benefit and as a deterrent to others.

I’m afraid I have no sympathy with parents who might have to stay home with their younger children. If you’re externally excluded in Yr 7 or so you have behaved very badly for your age and your parents should be inconvenienced and have to spend time with you hopefully trying to alter your behaviour in the future.

I think my kids school does it well. Parents are called in, tasks are identified - assisting with grounds work, cleaning etc. Child still goes to school but no uniform, is advised as to suitable attire for tasks. There is no interaction with other kids and they have their morning tea/lunch break at a different time to rest of school to avoid socialising. Private school in Aus.

Behaviour must be pretty bad for exclusion though. Usually the last resort. Why on earth was she allowed to enjoy it? Sunbathing? Come on! In their room with no technology for me.

It should be difficult for the parent, so they are motivated to work with child and school to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

Rubbish.

DS was suspended for one day last year. I made bloody sure he didn't have a lazy day and he did school work but it really shouldn't be down to me to be the only one punishing him for something that happened in school whilst the school does nothing.

A Saturday detention (which the school does have) would have been far better as a school punishment. A suspension basically meant the school did nothing.

I never understood it either.

Someone hates school, they misbehave, get excluded and don't have to go.

We prefer to do internal exclusions (primary school) in my school and save external exclusion for extreme cases: violence that endangers another child or member of staff or theft (more than just a pencil or rubber), that sort of thing.

"but it really shouldn't be down to me to be the only one punishing him for something that happened in school whilst the school does nothing."

By the time your son's school had decided to exclude him they will have gone through all the other available sanctions. Exclusion is really a last resort. It is your responsibility as a parent to support the school if your son is behaving badly enough to justify an exclusion

It's quite rare in my experience that a school excludes without trying other routes first though.

My school has a kind of partnership with a few other schools where escalation is internal exclusion in the other school. Works well

An internal exclusion would be petty misdemeanours such as general foul language, back chat. It has to be quite severe for a fixed term exclusion, usually something like a petty assault (pushing, shoving, general gobshitey intimidation), etc. A permanent exclusion would be aggravated assault with a weapon, sexual misconduct, dealing etc.

Parents rarely back the school in any form of punishment - you only have to look at the threads in this forum - Prince/ss never ever is in the wrong. It is Little Emperor Syndrome, put poppet on a pedestal and worship this being, then gaze in wonderment when wider society thinks you created an absolute monster. But above all seek to undermine any teacher or authority figure who has the temerity to curb The Little Emperors 'free spirit'

School's are there to educate your child. They aren't your free childcare and there is only so much they can do with regards to discipline etc. In the end it is down to the parent if their child is behaving that badly.

I'm of the opinion that parents should be raising children and schools should be place of learning.

Excluding disruptive pupils means the teachers can concentrate on teaching.

To be excluded from my school, you had to do something really bad, like breaking the law. One person got excluded for a week for setting fire to the school. Other people got excluded for a while (dunno how long) for taking/selling drugs. Each time, these kids were 11/12. I assume both times they also got a criminal record.

If your child is excluded, then you should be thinking that something has gone wrong somewhere in their life, whether thats bad parenting or bullying or peer pressure, whatever. But the parent should be finding out why they did what they did and fixing the problem. Its not the schools job to fix those kinds of problems, they are there to educate your child, nothing more. Not teach them manners, teach them right from wrong etc. Thats the parents job. Those kids by that age should have been taught by their parents that setting fire to things is wrong and taking drugs is wrong.

Kind of need to know what OP's DSD was excluded for too. Thats been left out. But no matter what it was, she shouldnt have been left to just sunbathe and laugh it off. Thats bad parenting.

Well they just want the child out of the school don't they? It's not really about what the parents do after that, they have the health and well being of hundreds of children to think about

My boarding school abroad was out in the sticks and reached by bad roads full of questionable vehicles and drivers so suspensions (as we called them) were performed on-site as a favour to parents. However despite the exclusion from the rest of the student body and the manual labour involved in the suspension (Africa - no mollycoddling), suspended students much preferred that to facing the ire of their parents.

Sorry, it has to be said. British parents are too soft on the whole. Part of the point of exclusions should be the deterrent and reformative effect of a parent's disappointment, annoyance, and consequences.

When my DS was suspended for a day, I told them I would prefer him to go in & do tasks on a non school day. (I suggested cleaning desks, putting up chairs/ cleaning toilets windows etc)
He ended up painting the school gate. Infinitely more effective.

Totally agree with LoniceraJaponica.

Do people really think that exclusions are the first resort? There have been a boy in DD’s class whose behaviour has been poor for years and has only recently been excluded.

As for parents being ‘penalised’ for the behaviour of their children on school premises, they are still their bloody responsibility even when they’re not there. If DD was behaving poorly at school that warranted the drastic step of exclusion I’d be mortified not bitching about the bloody inconvenience!

If my DD was excluded, I would be furious... with her! Not the school! If her behaviour was ever that bad, I would consider it completely my responsibility to deal with it.

Schools never go to exclusion as the first resort. There is a process with the Local Education Authority to go through and all exclusions are recorded. A school with a large amount of exclusions would be called
on to explain themselves. Exclusions are also measured by Ofsted.

Isnt exclusion one of the last resorts? Where a child is involved - under 18, it is the parents responsibility to sort out problems like this. School can only go so far. Why should this child be disruptive in class when the teachers could be teaching the other children instead. Better to disrupt the parents then all the other children.

It should be difficult for the parent, so they are motivated to work with child and school to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

Because it's only children of unmotivated parents who aren't already working with the school and myriad other agencies who behave in ways that lead to exclusions .

Making things difficult for parents, especially with an attitude that you are trying to punish them by doing so, is not conducive to developing good working relationships and certainly does nothing to increase mutual respect. Taking satisfaction from the fact that an exclusion is difficult for parents is ridiculous. The vast majority of parents whose children have been handed an exclusion are already very, very motivated to work towards a change in their child's behaviour, as they have been dealing with that child for years and will be doing so for the rest of their life. To take such a snide, unkind "obviously you have done nothing to try and help your child's behaviour so far and now that we have added the inconvenience of dealing with an exclusion to your life you will finally be motivated to take action" attitude to this is pathetic.

My ds was excluded this term. I would have only contempt for anyone who thought it was a good thing that yet another stressor was added to my life by it, and that until the exclusion I had been merrily skipping along ignoring all problems but now would change my ways and magically fix things. I have been trying to get him the help he needs for over 5 years, I had visited, emailed, written to, phoned the school to try and get plans in place before the situation which led to the exclusion arose. I got him seen by CAMHS when his previous school failed to get an Ed Psych assessment as promised. I deal with his aggression and lying and violence and stealing and impulsivity and risky behaviours and meltdowns, every day, for hours at a time. I bear the bruises. I make the appointments, I drag him to them. I manage the meds. I chase the reports and plead for the referrals and beg for the meetings. I deal with being verbally abused and threatened. I protect my other dc from the threats and aggression. I put my house back together over and over when he destroys things over and over. I enforce the bloody homework, and have to manage the consequences of that: one piece of homework means hours of difficulty for me. I back the school's decisions even when I disagree. It's me that has to take him shopping and suffer the public humiliation when he decides that he does not want to wear what the uniform policy states he must wear, and that he will communicate that to me with a full blown public tantrum.

I do not get to exclude my son, to give myself a break from him. I do it day in, day out, permanently. If I got even the faintest hint of that "perhaps now you have been inconvenienced you will make things better" message from any member of staff at my school I would be utterly furious. How dare any smug idiot who has no idea of what my life is like and how hard I work to keep things together judge me in that way?

It is my job to educate your child.
It is not my job to discipline behaviour serious enough to warrant exclusion.

I will not be giving up my time before/after/during school or on non-school days to look after your child in a detention so you don't have to punish them.

Aa for your DSD OP, her mother and father can take days off and should have disciplined her properly. Her sunbathing is entirely their fault.

sinceyouask but none of that is his schools fault and they should not be expected to find extra staff to supervise him after behaviour serious enough to warrant exclusion.

If it happened in the work place or at a place of HE/FE he wouldn't simply be excluded for a day.