To not understand exclusion from school

[witchofzog]

This is a genuine question so perhaps aibu is not the right place but I just don't get it as it often punishes parents more than dc's. I get that for pupils who are particularly disruptive they need to be removed for a period of time so other pupils dont suffer but then surely isolation or a period of detentions would be more effective (though of course I know these then need to be staffed)

I say this because of dsd's school. She was excluded during the summer for 2 days and spent it sunbathing on her mum's new patio furniture. She was laughing about it saying it was like a mini holiday. 2 of her friends were also excluded. One of whom spent the exclusion in a similar way and one of whose parents took away all privileges and made sure it was a pretty boring couple of days, which is what I think should be done. I know the onus is on the parents to re-inforce correct behaviour in their dc's but at the same time, exclusions happen from year 7 where pupils sometimes are 11 or 12 which is very young to be left alone all day and could result in the parent having to take time off work therefore potentially jeopardizing their jobs.

I was just wondering what others thought about exclusions and whether they feel there could be a better way and if so what that might be?

[PugonToast]

Great post @Ceto

When my kid was very close to exclusion, it was because the school offered no support or accommodations for their array of diagnosed SN.

One of the punishments the class teacher liked to employ was to make them sit still on the carpet for a period of time. If they moved it would escalate to a SLT and more serious punishment as it showed disrespect for the class teacher apparently. However, one if the things the senco was desperately trying to help them with was finding an agreeable alternative to sitting on the carpet as their proprioception dysfunctions made it an impossible task. Nice eh?

This constant assertion that kids are going off the rails due to parental failings is bollocks. The times my kid has acted out in more serious ways, it has been due to school failure to support or manage their behaviour in the recommended way. An exclusion does fuck all to help. Particularly if the child is already school refusing due to stress.

[TheHungryDonkey]

Papergirl, I have worked in schools with adopted children. The behaviour can be challenging and extreme. But I don’t think it’s right to back up school punishment at home in cases like this because home should be a safe place. Quite often, the extreme behaviour in school is the result of anxiety and hyper vigilance due to things like attachment disorder - not saying yours is the case - but it’s not always possible to preempt because it’s complicated. Children with more complex needs should be able to find home a safe and calm space. I don’t care if chairs have been thrown at me, that’s what I’m paid to deal with whilst trying to get them access to quality education.

[Eightbelles]

I'm not really sure why SEN is being brought into this? Nothing in the OP's post suggests the DSD has SEN. I'd be wanting to remove the first D though, she certainly sounds like no darling, laughing at her expulsion and calling it a holiday.

[Ceto]

An ongoing (and worsening) problem is kids whose SEN is screamingly obvious but who don't yet have a statement or EHCP (because underfunded and understaffed EdPsych departments have a waiting list a mile long) - so the school hasn't got the funds to bring in specialist staff to help with the pupil.

That argument doesn't work for schools. If they think a child needs an EHCP, they can enter a request for one which starts a 20 week timetable during which, if an EHCP is needed, the LA has to get an Ed Psych report and all the other evidence they need in order to identify all the child's needs and the support required to meet them. Waiting lists just don't come into it: if the LA doesn't employ enough EPs itself, it must go to independents. Therefore support can be in place within 20 weeks of a decision to request an EHCP, and indeed in some areas it is possible for schools to apply for extra funding without waiting for that.

[Middleoftheroad]

OP it's also clear that you disagree with DSD mother allowing her to sunbathe and I get the feeling that you are seeking opinions on parenting in this case, not just thoughts on school.

[TheHungryDonkey]

Sen is being brought into it because of the ignorance of posters saying that children will have had lots of Sanctions before that and there’s a process that is followed when actually that’s just not true in many cases.

[Flowerpot1234]

It comes down to who is ultimately responsible for the child's poor behaviour: and that is the parent(s).

In the OP's example, clearly the poor parenting of the mother (and the father if he knew anything about it and allowed it) that allowed the DSD to languish sunbathing when she's been expelled has something to do with her behaviour in the first place. I doubt very much the school would ever have thought a parent would behave in such a way and would instead have hoped the parent would step up and discipline their child in partnership with the school.

I do see the issues on parents working however and like the solution which HoppingPavlova wrote of. In very short term exclusions, it could make sense to keep them within the boundaries of the school but removed completely from other pupils and given tasks to do that contribute to the good of the school and others.

[FitBitFanClub]

At no point has the OP said that her dsd has AN, or her own ds, who was also excluded in Yr 7.

[KatieHaslam22]

As a child i was regularly excluded from school due to my behaviour and I can confirm that it has had no impact on any admissions to college or university, and I am currently doing a degree! I also think it is pointless and just gives the children a break. Btw I was also expelled and this hasn’t had any negative impact on me either, however I was fortunate enough to still receive C and above grade despite the issues I had with education, but for many it just decreases their chances of getting good grades. Therefore I agree with the OP that it is a pointless and ridiculous ‘punishment’. But it is not the teacher job to teach correct behaviours, this should come from home and often exclusion causes children already struggling with issues at home to spend more time their causing increased emotional distress resulting in further incidents of negative behaviour. Pointless and cruel in some cases xx

[roomsonfire]

mine was excluded age 9.

the lead up to the exclusion included me demanding the school provide counselling for a pretty traumatic event (lost step dad and relative with terminal cancer). I was told by GP that school provides this and would be 10x faster than camhs. I agree it would've been. but heres the kicker, school decided my DC doesnt talk therefore counselling was pointless.

The didn't give my DC the opportunity for much needed support and thus DC spiralled and ended up excluded.

now DC is under social care because of a lot of stuff in school that school failed to deal with inc self harm issues because of bullying. I have done everything I can out of school but its on the school to deal with bullying.

There is a ridiculous amount of pressure on me to do more since this. I have. I have given up my job, I dont date, dont go out just to manage DCs behaviour and now I am accused of being resentful. too bloody right I am. I have done everything needed but I am constantly berated for my efforts whilst my DC lashes out with violence towards me.

exclusion was the trigger for spiralling behaviour and self harm issues because DC was punished but the bullies and teachers who didn't help haven't been punished.

DC is on a waiting list to move schools but its unlikely to happen due to other pupils getting priority. Im expecting another exclusion in the near future. I wont blame DC for this. I'll be blaming school failings and bullying that isnt resolved.


I also second everything that sinceyouask posted. Every. Single. Word. That is my life too.

[sinceyouask]

It comes down to who is ultimately responsible for the child's poor behaviour: and that is the parent(s).

Do you truly believe that?

[Eightbelles]

Sen is being brought into it because of the ignorance of posters saying that children will have had lots of Sanctions before that and there’s a process that is followed when actually that’s just not true in many cases.

No that isnt true, definitely not. I named two cases at my school where the kids were excluded because they broke the law.

Maybe some parents are just ignoring the fact that by screaming abuse and hitting other kids, their kids are actually breaking the law? Just going by some examples given, but I would exclude a child for that even if they had SEN. Thats not right.

[Ceto]

My dd was the victim of a so-called "happy slapping" incident at school resulting in the perpetrator getting a one day exclusion. My primary reaction to that was that it was wholly inadequate - not because I wanted her to have a longer exclusion, but because apparently the child in question went around boasting that she'd wangled a day's holiday. It would have been much more effective if the school had given her an internal exclusion and detentions out of hours, and if they had in particular made the effort to sit down with her and get her to realise how horrible her behaviour was.

[roomsonfire]

That argument doesn't work for schools. If they think a child needs an EHCP, they can enter a request for one which starts a 20 week timetable during which, if an EHCP is needed, the LA has to get an Ed Psych report and all the other evidence they need in order to identify all the child's needs and the support required to meet them.

this is bollocks. DCs teacher last year said DC needs 1-2-1 support and needed an EHCP. I requested this from school and they refused. I am putting one in myself with school saying some wishy washy bullshit about not meeting thresholds and no diagnosis. We have several diagnoses and still no EHCP.

if the school doesnt want to do one they wont and I challenge a part of that is money. it costs to implement support in school.

My DC is relying on volunteers for support. This is not on and not fair on the volunteers nor my DC because those volunteers aren't trained to deal with this sort of stuff.

[LloydSpinjago]

Exclusions work.

Probably not for the child and their family, but in all honesty who cares?

It gives the teachers and the rest of the pupils who might actually want to learn a break. Day exclusions are pretty pointless though, they need to be much longer

[Ceto]

roomsonfire, it isn't bollocks - although your child's school seems to have failed in a big way. You should have been advised that it is open to you to apply for an EHCP, and that you can appeal if the LA refuses - something like 80% of appeals succeed. I would suggest you contact IPSEA or SOS SEN as soon as possible for help with this.

[Ceto]

What a delightful post, LloydSpinjago. If you can read sinceyouask's and roomsonfire's posts and say "in all honesty who cares?" you need to have a good look at your personal morality.

[PugonToast]

Christs sake. Why do people think that a disruptive kid has parents that don't engage with the school at all? SN kids are often unfairly and definitely disproportionately excluded. We are the most engaged parents I know. Yes, I am aware that some are t but on the whole we work with the school as much as possible.

The person who said they have problems because kids are got statements/ECHPs. That is mainly because schools will not support our application or the education board turns them down. It seems to have very little to do with lack of need.

@FitBitFanClub you have a horrible attitude towards kids and parents. Ignorant and bigoted. God help us if you are a teacher. You have no idea about the reality of parenting difficult kids and how often they are let down or managed out of schools. Often the support they need is low or no cost but many teachers just can't be bothered or the communication is so poor it doesn't get passed on. Attitudes like yours are hateful.

[LloydSpinjago]

What a delightful post, LloydSpinjago. If you can read sinceyouask's and roomsonfire's posts and say "in all honesty who cares?" you need to have a good look at your personal morality

Nothing to do with morality. I care more about my children than other people's. Not a particularly fashionable view point these days but hey ho

[roomsonfire]

ceto with my school that echp plan is bollocks. DCs teacher moved schools and made a complaint over the handling of our case. hence me wanting to change schools.

[Mistressiggi]

Steeley113 I’m glad you know calling your teacher a cunt was wrong but less so that you think you shouldn’t have been excluded. The day such an offence no longer merits an exclusion is the day I resign. No one is paid enough for that!

[witchofzog]

Neither my dsd or my ds have sen. I don't think dsd's mum should have allowed her to sunbathe. It's hardly a punishment. But at the same time dsd's mum doesn't work so she would have experienced minimal inconvenience. I agree punishments should also happen at home and parents of children who are badly behaved not down to sen should support and work with the school. But for those parents like myself and other posters who have done everything they can and still find their child excluded which puts their own jobs at risk. Well who is being punished then? As another poster said maybe punishments should depend on the child, the circumstances and the deed itself

[Ceto]

Nothing to do with morality. I care more about my children than other people's. Not a particularly fashionable view point these days but hey ho

Nothing to do with fashion, everything to do with morality. I'd worry seriously about children being brought up to believe that being thoroughly selfish is acceptable conduct.

[LemonysSnicket]

Well even the thought of an exclusion would’ve sent me white with fear ... I think if they get to the point of exclusion and don’t see it as a punishment then they don’t respect or fear authority ... so maybe when it inconveniences the parent , they will work harder to bring their child into line.

Only the extremely naughty kids at my massive comp school we’re ever excluded.