To not understand exclusion from school

[witchofzog]

This is a genuine question so perhaps aibu is not the right place but I just don't get it as it often punishes parents more than dc's. I get that for pupils who are particularly disruptive they need to be removed for a period of time so other pupils dont suffer but then surely isolation or a period of detentions would be more effective (though of course I know these then need to be staffed)

I say this because of dsd's school. She was excluded during the summer for 2 days and spent it sunbathing on her mum's new patio furniture. She was laughing about it saying it was like a mini holiday. 2 of her friends were also excluded. One of whom spent the exclusion in a similar way and one of whose parents took away all privileges and made sure it was a pretty boring couple of days, which is what I think should be done. I know the onus is on the parents to re-inforce correct behaviour in their dc's but at the same time, exclusions happen from year 7 where pupils sometimes are 11 or 12 which is very young to be left alone all day and could result in the parent having to take time off work therefore potentially jeopardizing their jobs.

I was just wondering what others thought about exclusions and whether they feel there could be a better way and if so what that might be?

@sinceyouask my sincerest empathies. Although your dc seems to be at the far end of the spectrum, your story is more common than many know or understand. A parent cannot control a child who doesn't respond the way a "normal" child does. Not all children are able to be punishable for wished for results.

My ds was a good struggle in school bc of dyslexia. Not bc it's a behavioral disruptive problem, but bc he was angry that he was considered stupid for his inability to spell. He was more mischievous than evil (annoying not dangerous) but he was certainly on the radar for anything that happened. I'm sure that he got away with some things but also was punished for things that he shouldn't have been. He's doing great at university now btw.

Our dd has never been affected by punishments. She is worse since the brain injuries. We hold our breath and pray that she decides it's advantageous to behave. I can hear all of the eye rolling snorts of disgust, but I've spoken to my dh 100s of times. He was the same way. They aren't criminal, but they choose which rules to follow and accept the consequences.

Some people are like my ds and myself and others are just a brick wall. This self-determination can be helpful (dh is successful in his chosen career) but it's/they are nearly impossible to control.

It wouldn't matter if i took away every technical device in our home. That would simply be a test of wills. She would decide that she didn't care. She's been this way since birth.

The only thing that i have is that she loves us and respects us and desires those things in return (as if love is a spickot).

Some parents deserve all that you heap upon us. But others, we are swimming as hard as we can.

As an aside, there was a disruptive girl in ds's class who threw tantrums nearly everyday. The teachers could not teach. I think that she was far worse than the playful shove in the hallway that is punished bc the culprit is young and rambunctious.

Schools don't enjoy giving out exclusions; it's a massive amount of paperwork and time spent meeting with parents and reintroduction meetings and catching up on meeting targets, instead of being at home with their own kids. If a child gets to the point of being excluded, then something has gone way wrong, this is more than just a slip up or a one-off, out-of-character, hormonal-driven incident. So yes, maybe the parent should be inconvenienced somewhat because they need to spend some time disciplining their child. And if a child is given the opportunity to have a holiday, then they are just going to continue to misbehave and continue to disrupt their parents' working lives, and that is not the school disrupting their working lives, that is their own child and should be seen as such.

This is the last resort for schools - they get a 'black mark' for exclusions which have to be shown on the annual school census, and will try very hard not to have to do this. Sometimes it is the only option left.

I'm truly shocked at some of the misinformed and judgemental attitudes here, and every sympathy for parents who have posted who are struggling against the system.

For the record my son was permanently excluded for a one off incident - and no it didn't involve violence, drug dealing or anything that would put another person in danger. He had no history of fixed term exclusions - but did have - like so many other parents here, SEN needs which we don't believe school were effectively supporting, and was failing academically. Quite simply his school were happy to exclude him so that their good academic record went untainted. Our experience is far from unusual - for anyone interested there has been a recent Education Select Committee enquiry into this type of practice and in the last week, the Head of OFSTED and The Children's Commissioner for England have both spoken out about the rising number of formal and informal inappropriate exclusions. Whilst many do, not all exclusions arise from poor parenting or consistently poor pupil behaviour - but arise as a consequence of persistent pressure for schools to achieve good exam results and their desire to preserve their reputation as academy brands.

Thanks so much for writing that, my son had serious problems and a school phobia that meant when I got him there he’d be pretty much sent home. I ended up leaving my job to homeschool him. I tried bigger bounderies and more routine and it just made him angrier and his behaviour worse. The whole drama gave me serious anxiety that I’ve only just recovered from. School is the wrong place for some kids and these kids are terrified of school.

School is the wrong place for some kids and these kids are terrified of school

I think you'll find OP was asking why her DSD was allowed to sunbath whilst excluded!! It's the attitude of parents to excluded children

Not the whole system

Bear in mind it’s for other kids’ benefit as well. If a child has been disruptive, it’s stopping other children learning.

As a parent, you are responsible for making your child behave. Without your support, the school has little to no chance. YABU.

Kids get excluded from special schools as well.

I think we need to separate the issues about SEN children and those that are simply badly behaved. Clearly, most parents care very deeply, but the OP was talking about parents who just don't care at all.

Exclusion is a last resort when nothing else works

I've said again and again on here that this simply is not true. Schools can and do exclude for one-off incidents on a regular basis.

Good schools don't.

I was a governor at DD's school and there were very few exclusions during my term. It does affect ofsted ratings. The school has had a couple of good ofsted ratings now after being in the requires improvement category for many years and will do everything they can not to jeopardise that.

It's difficult to separate out the issue of exclusion of children with SEN, simply because such a ridiculously high proportion of such children get excluded. It's impossible to generalise about exclusions without taking that into account.

I work in an alternative provision and exclusion for some children just isn't the answer as some children WANT to be excluded if they hate school so much that they can't cope. For children who are persistently absent with very low attendance or even secondary age runners who turn up and then make a break for it, what does exclusion achieve? It is mixed messages that you are on their case to turn up or actually stay in school for the whole day, but then when they are in school, they get excluded as school can't cope with them?

DeepanKrispanEven

Even more difficult when you consider that children with SEND can be badly behaved and it not be linked to SEND or the school's provision.

boney

so, so how do you establish that a disruptive behaviour is not linked to SEN???

chocolateiamydrug

Are you saying that if a child with a SEN is badly behaved that it must be linked to the SEN???

A child with SEN can still be badly behaved, just like any child. To say otherwise is to see SEN children as naturally much better behaved that NT children.

that is not what I said at all, crunchy

I base the fact that ds1's "bad" behaviour was largely due to his SEN and lack of support on the observation that it virtually disappeared after he was placed in a PRU and well supported. Behaviour is communication and in ds1's case he was telling us he was very, very stressed. It is to our shame that we and school failed to realise this for so long.

OneInEight

My point wasn't that children with SEN don't get incorrectly excluded or that some schools are unable or unwilling to provide the needed support.

My point is that some children are bullies and some children are badly behaved, some of these children have a SEN and some (most) don't.

to generalise is dangerous to all children that have been or are being bullied

The exclusion isn't done primarily to benefit the disruptive child and his or her parents. The point of excluding a child is surely to ensure that the 34 other kids in the class can learn without some badly behaved child stealing their chance of an education. I'd rather penalise the one bad apple than all of the other kids. If UK parents were stricter with their kids instead of all the negotiations about behaviour, the exclusion rate would be much lower. If you don't want your child to be excluded, then step up and be a parent instead of trying to be their mate.

Interesting article here about exclusions.

schoolsweek.co.uk/england-has-highest-expulsion-rate-in-europe/

Reading some of these posts just amaze me. The school does nothing? Really? Believe me, the parents are at fault here unless there is a special needs case. I know children make their own decisions, but to go as far as an exclusion, they must've done something pretty extreme.

Why should other children who CAN behave themselves have to suffer and miss out on their education just because the troublemakers can't contain themselves? Why should teachers who, by the way, are not babysitters, crowd control OR probation officers, be constantly battling bad behaviour? They're TEACHers. The clue is in their job title. Surely if these kids were raised right in the first place, it wouldn't come to exclusions. I don't know how many times I've seen children just sitting waiting for these feral kids to shut up or get kicked out so they can just continue with being taught. It's disgusting. (I don't mind admitting I was one of those kids who missed out on a hell of a lot thanks to the behavioural issues of others.)

Of course exclusions shouldn't be a little holiday for the kids but I don't see why schools/teachers should take the blame (yet again).