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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not understand exclusion from school

205 replies

witchofzog · 18/12/2017 10:24

This is a genuine question so perhaps aibu is not the right place but I just don't get it as it often punishes parents more than dc's. I get that for pupils who are particularly disruptive they need to be removed for a period of time so other pupils dont suffer but then surely isolation or a period of detentions would be more effective (though of course I know these then need to be staffed)

I say this because of dsd's school. She was excluded during the summer for 2 days and spent it sunbathing on her mum's new patio furniture. She was laughing about it saying it was like a mini holiday. 2 of her friends were also excluded. One of whom spent the exclusion in a similar way and one of whose parents took away all privileges and made sure it was a pretty boring couple of days, which is what I think should be done. I know the onus is on the parents to re-inforce correct behaviour in their dc's but at the same time, exclusions happen from year 7 where pupils sometimes are 11 or 12 which is very young to be left alone all day and could result in the parent having to take time off work therefore potentially jeopardizing their jobs.

I was just wondering what others thought about exclusions and whether they feel there could be a better way and if so what that might be?

OP posts:
Ceto · 18/12/2017 17:27

Yes he had SEN however his behaviour had reached a point whereby it was no longer considered safe for him to be at school.

sailorcherries, the answer to that is to tell the LA unequivocally that the school cannot meet his needs and they must take alternative steps to do so. And to support the parents in applying for a specialist school placement, and in appealing if the LA refuses. I know you say that there are very few places in your area, but there may be independent school places or places outside your area that can actually work with the child and turn things around.

One thing is certain, constant exclusions aren't going to achieve anything, are they? If people won't fight for the right provision, it will never happen.

Pengggwn · 18/12/2017 17:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sailorcherries · 18/12/2017 17:32

Notreally I'm Scottish based, I don't think you are. Our bloody inclusive education policy has resulted in a lack of provison for all children with additonal needs. It has led to a lack of support from LAs and numerous issues as a teacher should be able to accommodate the individual needs of 30 children with no support, funding and resources. It makes it bloody difficult to remove a child from a mainstream classroom as it isn't inclusive.
We also only have 2 educational psychs for the entire council.

Placing all the blame on the teachers and individual school, in my situation, is short sighted.

It may be different for you but that doesn't make me wrong.

cricketballs3 · 18/12/2017 17:33

So what should have happened to the student (who has no SEND) who assaulted me? What about the student (again, no SEND) who deliberately set fire alarm off 3 days in a row? The non SEND student who attacked another student causing physical harm?

Far too often on MN you see the threads of parents in despair because a school hasn't excluded someone who has harmed their DC, now we have a thread full of posters saying schools shouldn't exclude at all Hmm

GreenTulips · 18/12/2017 17:33

i disagree with exclusion, mainly due to a feral gang who often are excluded together and end up out and about causing trouble. I believe the rules of exclusion mean the child should be supervised at all times ans not left to roam the streets

In these cases the parent should be made to attend classes with their child, so yes inconvenience them.

SEN is different, and requires a separate behaviour plan -

No really relevant in this thread

Ceto · 18/12/2017 17:35

Yep and the parents can "address" the child's needs during the exclusion. In the mean time the other 25-30 pupils in the class might actually learn something

Oh, right. And if addressing the child's needs requires specialist occupational and speech and language therapy, plus psychiatric input and training for teaching staff, the parents should magic all that up, should they? Or do you think that maybe it would be a good idea for the local authority to do it, given that its statutory duty it is to meet the child's needs, and it is funded for the purpose? And that the school also might comply with their statutory duty to use their best endeavours to identify and meet children's needs, given that again they're funded for that purpose? I know all about the difficulties in getting adequate funding but, again, if all we do is exclude children with SEN that is simply playing into the hands of schools and LAs that can't be bothered.

It's not even good sense economically, given that failure to meet SEN will simply increase the proportion of adults unable to support themselves and/or who to into the criminal justice system. Or are you happy to pay out for that, Lloydspinjago?

Pengggwn · 18/12/2017 17:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Notreallyarsed · 18/12/2017 17:37

@sailorcherries actually I am Scottish based. Thankfully DS1 got a place at a unit attached to a mainstream, as I hate to think how distressed he’d have been planked into mainstream with no support. I agree, it’s the policy that is the problem, but not the idea, it’s the lack of support and funding. That said, excluding children with SEN for behaviour associated with their disability is shit and lazy. There are ways to meet needs without throwing money at them.

sailorcherries · 18/12/2017 17:39

ceto I'm in Scotland and the school do fight but it will take years. It is a losing battle and this instance the parents don't want support and it's all our fault.

Everyone knows that without intervention that boy will be permanently excluded by the age of 16 having been completely and utterly failed.
Our SMT were phoning and emailing the council daily to no avail.

Again, it's not always the school.

Ceto · 18/12/2017 17:40

What baffles me is that in many European countries school exclusions are virtually unknown, yet their schools manage. Why can't ours?

LloydSpinjago · 18/12/2017 17:41

You and others have made this about SEN, Ceto (par for the course on mumsnet to be fair) neither the OP or myself have mentioned them at all.

It's not even good sense economically, given that failure to meet SEN will simply increase the proportion of adults unable to support themselves and/or who to into the criminal justice system. Or are you happy to pay out for that, Lloydspinjago?

I already do. Makes no odds to me if those children turn into economically unproductive adults and/or criminals due to being excluded, because as I've mentioned several times, I only care about my children

sailorcherries · 18/12/2017 17:42

Notreally this behaviour had been ongoing since August and he was finally excluded in March.
Another child had his first exclusion after 6 years of similar behaviour.

Thankfully, in all my experiences, exclusion truly is a last resort.

sinceyouask · 18/12/2017 17:45

You and others have made this about SEN, Ceto (par for the course on mumsnet to be fair) neither the OP or myself have mentioned them at all.

That you can't understand the relevance of SEN to this discussion says it all, really.

sailorcherries · 18/12/2017 17:47

Ceto issues such support, policy, funding and resources make all the difference in those countries.

Notreallyarsed · 18/12/2017 18:14

@sailorcherries I fully agree that lack of funding, support and real understanding of what inclusion means by the powers that be is an enormous problem, the whole problem virtually. It doesn’t change the fact that there are numerous children being failed by a system which doesn’t work.

FitBitFanClub · 18/12/2017 18:39

SEN aside, there is a massive problem in schools today with low-level disruption which, I guarantee you, is having a huge negative impact on your child's learning. The parents of those children doing the mucking about will be the ones who complain that the school is over-reacting and that it's the teachers' fault, or that their child is "bored."

GreenTulips · 18/12/2017 18:41

That you can't understand the relevance of SEN to this discussion says it all, really.

Totally disagree - most SEN kids are perfectly well behaved

A lot of badly behaved children are due to issues at home, or friendships, trying to fit in, daring each other etc

You are giving SEN kids a bad name by suggesting this as a main reason for exclusion. I'm not sayng it doesn't happen, but it's not the SEN kids always being excluded

Ceto · 18/12/2017 18:42

You and others have made this about SEN, Ceto

Because, as pointed out, staggering numbers of children with SEN get excluded: it's almost half of all permanent and fixed period exclusions - pupils on SEN support are almost seven times as likely to be permanently excluded as children with no SEN. Those with EHC plans and statements are almost six times more likely to receive fixed term exclusions. Given the emphasis in DfE guidance on the need to take steps to avoid exclusion for SEN, that is appalling.

And none of that takes into account schools' regular practice of illegal "unofficial" exclusions and part time timetables for those with SEN.

Makes no odds to me if those children turn into economically unproductive adults and/or criminals due to being excluded, because as I've mentioned several times, I only care about my children

Maybe you care if you and your children have to pay extra taxes resulting from this? Or if your child is the victim of a crime committed by someone who might never have resorted to crime if his educational needs had been met?

Notreallyarsed · 18/12/2017 18:42

GreenTulips people aren’t saying that kids with SEN (well most of us anyway) are badly behaved, we're saying that a disproportionate amount of kids with SEN are being excluded because of their disabilities.

Notreallyarsed · 18/12/2017 18:43

Makes no odds to me if those children turn into economically unproductive adults and/or criminals due to being excluded, because as I've mentioned several times, I only care about my children

Wow. Just wow. And not in a good way!

Ceto · 18/12/2017 18:44

Ceto issues such support, policy, funding and resources make all the difference in those countries.

Absolutely. It would make so much more sense, economically and otherwise, to make proper provision for education rather than to chuck children out of their schools.

Notreallyarsed · 18/12/2017 18:47

The fact that people are prepared to just write off children who are not behaving in the appropriate way, whether that’s down to SEN, or chaotic home life, or struggles within their family or even just being a wee toerag is terrifying and depressing in equal measure.
We cannot become a society which just cuts out the parts of society which don’t suit us. That way lies madness, it’s appalling to just not try and help and support children who are struggling. To identify what they are struggling with and put support in place and encourage them to thrive in the best way they can.
What is the bloody point if a child is told they just aren’t worth making any effort for?

GreenTulips · 18/12/2017 18:48

we're saying that a disproportionate amount of kids with SEN are being excluded because of their disabilities

Exclusions have a legal basis, you can not exclude without an awful lot of paperwork and exact facts

Have you challenged any? Are there any charities that offer advise and support? Genuine question! Because legally they have to take into account disabilities and shop these have been suppprted. They should be reviewed after each incident and outcome noted

Notreallyarsed · 18/12/2017 18:50

I haven’t challenged any, because thankfully DS1 has a fantastic school. Legally what should happen with regards to disability and reasonable adjustments, and what actually happens are two completely different things, sadly.

PugonToast · 18/12/2017 18:52

Having SN does NOT exclude your child from being required to have appropriate standards of behaviour.

However if we have told the school repeatedly that certain triggers will cause confusion and agitation so please deal with these in a particular manner, and it isn't followed, resulting in punishing our child for reacting in THE WAY WE TOLD THEM THEY WOULD and then punishment....

Can you not see that it is not poor parenting or wilful malice? It is entirely preventable. I am not talking about random triggers like the colour orange or something like that. I am referring to common triggers most people are aware of - transitions, changes of routine or staff, giving short instructions not long lists, using clear specific language not easily misinterpreted language. These are not tricky things to do. But frequently they are not done which affects our kids adversely and they get labelled as a brat or freak or horrible or nasty.