To not understand exclusion from school

[witchofzog]

This is a genuine question so perhaps aibu is not the right place but I just don't get it as it often punishes parents more than dc's. I get that for pupils who are particularly disruptive they need to be removed for a period of time so other pupils dont suffer but then surely isolation or a period of detentions would be more effective (though of course I know these then need to be staffed)

I say this because of dsd's school. She was excluded during the summer for 2 days and spent it sunbathing on her mum's new patio furniture. She was laughing about it saying it was like a mini holiday. 2 of her friends were also excluded. One of whom spent the exclusion in a similar way and one of whose parents took away all privileges and made sure it was a pretty boring couple of days, which is what I think should be done. I know the onus is on the parents to re-inforce correct behaviour in their dc's but at the same time, exclusions happen from year 7 where pupils sometimes are 11 or 12 which is very young to be left alone all day and could result in the parent having to take time off work therefore potentially jeopardizing their jobs.

I was just wondering what others thought about exclusions and whether they feel there could be a better way and if so what that might be?

Sorry, TheHungryDonkey, it's a statutory requirement for maintained schools that the Headteacher reports numbers and reasons for exclusions to the Governing Body - it's usually done in the Headteacher's Report each term. Of course, this is not the case for Academies...

Actually I do think that above PPs ‘Saturday detention’ is a better idea though ... extra school on a weekend is a better punishment

Our school has a process of de-merits, punishment exercises, internal exclusion and only external exclusion in extreme ongoing circumstances or a one off gross misconduct. all of which I support fully.

ds(13) has had one de-merit as he forgot his homework once, he knows it was a slip up and we bounced about ideas how he could keep better track of homework and left to him to work out what worked best for him. He knows school must be taken seriously as it is his future, and although we don't expect him to be perfectly behaved (he is a teenager after all!) if he has regular de-merits or any higher disciplinary measures we would not be happy and there certainly would be no laughing about it and sunbathing. The full day would either be spent studying or on hard labour and my house would be gleaming by the end of it and he'd wish he was back in school.

He is reasonably receptive to advice and/or discipline as required (probably partly due to both nature and nurture) and we are fortunate we don't have to consider any special needs which would be a different ball game altogether.

@Mistressiggi the fact that this woman constantly bullied me for 2 years to the point where I’d be physically sick on the mornings I had lessons with her means nothing then eh? I stand by the fact she WAS a cunt. I wasn’t a trouble maker and once I was removed permanently from her lessons, I went back to being a nice, happy child who never got in trouble again. I just couldn’t handle my emotions effectively at 13 funnily enough and finally snapped, so an exclusion was a bit OTT.

Actually I do think that above PPs ‘Saturday detention’ is a better idea though ... extra school on a weekend is a better punishment

I think that's a parents job to ensure they follow through with discipline at home outside school hours, I would not expect teachers to supervise Saturday detentions.

It’s not ott unless you want every member of the class to think they too can say that and get away with it. Of course you should not have been treated badly but that needed to be resolved earlier (by parental intervention if the school was handling it properly). I can’t move away from a baseline of not calling teachers cunts or you’ll be excluded, there needs to be a line in the sand somewhere we get anothe abuse as it is. It is a shame you did not get support until it reached that stage.

Or maybe they feel they are so stupid and useless that they would prefer to be at home than at school where they struggle so much.
Exclusion wouldn't be an effective punishment for my child. They would be hugely agitated and stressed and full of self hatred. But you wouldn't see this because it is often masked by impassive withdrawal.

Every single time my child has been disruptive it has been due to failures in support and accommodations or peer bullying (which didn't get dealt with because the parents of the bully were so aggressive in their dismissal of the suggestion and said my child was the weird one with issues so it stands to reason that were are the one causing problems. The HT supported them despite the class teacher telling him it wasn't true).

But reading all these replies, it is obvious that all problems will be blamed on my poor parenting and the child being contemptuous of authority.

It is so depressing.

Nothing to do with fashion, everything to do with morality. I'd worry seriously about children being brought up to believe that being thoroughly selfish is acceptable conduct.

As an aside I'm not bringing my children up in any such way. My personal view point is I care more about them and their future's than another child in their class. If that child is disruptive and causes my childrens learning to suffer, too fucking right I'd want them excluded.

Any child who is excluded has SEND, because challenging behaviour is recognised as an additional need. Ceto is right. There is a 20 week process towards an EHCP, but the school must show what has happened to try to improve the difficulties the child is having. It's misleading to suggest that schools can simply call on an Ed Psych without being able to show what they've put in place.

Academies are different of course and because they are not governed by the LA will have their own arrangements dependent upon the policy in the MAT.

I also think there are different aspects to this. There are children who have a diagnosis or are on the way to one and it's particularly difficult knowing that this is not poor behaviour per se, but a response by the child to a stressful situation. There are others who are excluded because they have done something dangerous, broken the law or whose behaviour is impossible to deal with.

its not a helpful method, it rarely helps and I think only fuels social exclusion in families and communities

And, in purely practical terms, exclusion can make things worse for families. If you are constantly having to take time of work because DC are excluded, you are likely to lose your job and struggle to get another; as the switch to Universal Credit continues that could mean six weeks or more without a penny to feed the DC (who are excluded, so need to be fed at home) or heat the house.
Underfunding of education/children's mental health services and widespread poverty (which can lead to young people getting involved in gang culture because they see no other way of making money and/or feel justified contempt for authority) are much more likely to be the causes of challenging behaviour in schools than 'bad parenting'.

parents parent, schools educate. If children behave badly, it is for the parents to correct that - not for the school to divert resources away from other children. I don't think the school is particularly interested in what the child does when it is out of the school, or in whether they feel punished - they just want them out of the school because they are being problematic.

I think that is reasonable. Schools can't guarantee perfect unicorn children - you turn up to be educated, not parented.

I have three children. DS1 I have mentioned here. DS2, born to and raised by the same parents, in the same circumstances, with the same attempts to instil the same values, is a totally different child. He has been in trouble precisely three times in his entire school life so far. He once had his name moved down for talking and was mortified, crying in bed that night. He was horrified by his brother's exclusion and appalled by the behaviour that had led up to it. DS3 is too young for me to know yet how he will end up.

Given that I have raised both ds1, whose behaviour is fairly awful, and ds2, whose behaviour is close to perfect (in school, anyway), am I or am I not a parent who needs motivating? Am I or am I not responsible for ds1's (very) poor behaviour? If so, I must also be responsible for ds2's (very) good behaviour. If ds1's problems are all down to my appalling parenting, how come ds2 doesn't have them?

To be fair to LloydSpinjago, I see where they are coming from. It seems like a nice, simple solution- keep people whose behaviours are undesirable and disruptive away from those who are largely not, right? But I think it's problematic, for a number of reasons. It was the thinking behind the old systems, where we locked people up in institutions and abused them in various ways for decades, for one thing. I very much doubt that's something LloydSpinjago or anyone else supports at all, of course, but it is what happens when you follow the 'keep the bad kids away from mine, end of' approach through. And it does not encourage the parents of the children with problems to think about the effects they have on other children, really- if all parents take the 'only my dc matter to me and sod the rest' approach, that means I only have to care about what ds1 experiences and I can stop worrying about the impact he has on his peers. If you don't care about my dc, you can't expect me to care about yours. Only, I do care, very very much. I want ds1 to get the support he needs for himself, so he can live safe and happy and well, and for his family, and for the other children at his school, and for the community at large. You can exclude him now and think 'job done, he's not bothering my kid any more', but ds1 doesn't stop existing- and without proper help and support and inclusion, he will go on to impact many, many more people negatively throughout his life. I don't want that at all.

For those of you who think it’s down to parents when a child behaves badly your ignorance is astounding.
My adopted ds has behavioural difficulties he was neglected and abused by his birth family. I’m not talking about a bit of dirt here I’m talking broken bones, cigarettes being stubbed out on his body, being left alone for days at a time with no food. He survived but he is not unscathed, his past plays out in his behaviour even years later.
He has come close to school exclusion despite huge efforts on our part to get the school to understand him, get support in place, help him to learn how to behave and putting in boundaries to support school decisions.
Those of you who think I just need to tell him off a bit harder and firmer have no fucking clue so fuck the fuck off and thank your lucky stars you are not in the same position.
As for schools wanting to cleanse themselves of kids with difficulties such as ASD, ADHD etc it happens believe me. I’ve seen it often and it’s absolutely shameful.

it's very hurtful to have people criticise parenting, when you are doing your best to work with the school and to help your child.

It's equally hurtful to have people criticise what you are doing in school, when you are turning yourself inside out to get staff to understand, outside agencies to support you and have children attack you because they are overwhelmed with the whole school experience.

Some schools manage well; some parents manage well. But sometimes, only sometimes, exclusion is the only temporary solution to an inflammatory situation.

Letting, the Head Teacher’s Report was always a lying crock of shite which is why I resigned being a governor. I couldn’t sit and watch him lie with the other governors unwilling to question the inconsistencies.

I think continual mentioning of SEN with regards to appalling behaviour is incorrect and paints a untrue stereotype.

Many students with ASD ADHD are very well behaved and extremely polite , in fact a lot of those kids are so quiet they wont speak up when being bullied or picked on by teachers.

Why can't people accept that some kids are just badly behaved and SEN plays little part in calling a teacher a 'cunt' etc.

This also has the effect on children with SENs of being labelled, before they have even set foot in a classroom.

pug and foxy are saying the things that resonate most for me and my DC. :-)

Bullying combined with a mild learning difficulty and a hearing impairment have resulted in a DC with rock bottom self esteem. This is being expressed as immense frustration at school.

All those smug posters who think they know all the answers don't know how to 'punish' a teen who already thinks they they are stupid and worthless (DC's words). School kept saying that he didn't need counselling... and that's exactly what he is finally getting. But we had to hit rock bottom first which was a one day exclusion.

Why can't people accept that some kids are just badly behaved and SEN plays little part in calling a teacher a 'cunt' etc.

Probably because for some children, their particular SEN does have a significant effect on their behaviour?

Emotional and behavioural difficulties are part of the criteria in the Code of Practice for SEND, so yes, behaviour is recognised as a special or additional need, even if you regard it as 'simply' poor behaviour, without any learning need.

I work in Alternative Provision and "just badly behaved" does not describe our students. They are vulnerable children greatly in need of support.

If that child is disruptive and causes my childrens learning to suffer, too fucking right I'd want them excluded.

Lloyd, don't you think it might be a better idea for that child's needs to be addressed so that he isn't disruptive and his education doesn't have to be disrupted either?

parents parent, schools educate. If children behave badly, it is for the parents to correct that - not for the school to divert resources away from other children. I don't think the school is particularly interested in what the child does when it is out of the school, or in whether they feel punished - they just want them out of the school because they are being problematic.

If it is not the role of schools to give education in behaviour, why do they do it? Self-evidently it is an inherent part of a decent education - there is no point in filling pupils with lots of academic knowledge whilst leaving them feral. Schools don't have to divert resources anyway; education in good behaviour should be a part of everyday good teaching practice, and if they need further specialist resources, that is what the EHCP system is there for.

I think continual mentioning of SEN with regards to appalling behaviour is incorrect and paints a untrue stereotype.

But it reflects the fact that a wholly disproportionate number of pupils with SEN end up getting excluded for behaviour which is the direct result of their disabilities, and is therefore highly relevant to this discussion.

Having a SEN should not excuse your child from exclusions if their behaviour warrants that. For their safety and wellbeing as well as the safety and wellbeing of everyone else.

I taught a boy who, at 6, regularly trashed my class and threw chairs resulting in the rest of the class being removed; lashed out so hard that my legs and arms were regularly bruised; hit and bit other people; and terrified the other children who then didn't want to go to school. I was pregnant during this and lived in constant fear of a stray chair/punch/kick hitting my stomach.

Yes he had SEN however his behaviour had reached a point whereby it was no longer considered safe for him to be at school.
Formal exclusions don't just happen, our SMT fought for weeks to get a 2 day exclusion.
His parents then kicked off and threw the discrimination card around, told us that it would disrupt their jobs, how they needed a break etc. We informed them that any child displaying such violence would be removed; it was disrupting the work of 6 other people and the learning of 18 other kids; and that school is not a bloody break. Also when asked if they'd take responsibility for their child's actions should one of the regularly flung chairs seriously injure someone they had no answer.

Schools are no different to any other area, be it rail travel or retail. It is not our job to provide care for your child to allow you to work and we should not be subjected to abuse because 'it's school'. Nor should we be expected to give up our free time after work/on the weekend to facilitate detentions.

The removal of alternative provison schools and the push towards mainstream, the budget cuts and everything else may contribute to more exclusions for children who need additional support. However this is not the fault of the teacher and not something we should need to put up with daily.