To not understand exclusion from school

[witchofzog]

This is a genuine question so perhaps aibu is not the right place but I just don't get it as it often punishes parents more than dc's. I get that for pupils who are particularly disruptive they need to be removed for a period of time so other pupils dont suffer but then surely isolation or a period of detentions would be more effective (though of course I know these then need to be staffed)

I say this because of dsd's school. She was excluded during the summer for 2 days and spent it sunbathing on her mum's new patio furniture. She was laughing about it saying it was like a mini holiday. 2 of her friends were also excluded. One of whom spent the exclusion in a similar way and one of whose parents took away all privileges and made sure it was a pretty boring couple of days, which is what I think should be done. I know the onus is on the parents to re-inforce correct behaviour in their dc's but at the same time, exclusions happen from year 7 where pupils sometimes are 11 or 12 which is very young to be left alone all day and could result in the parent having to take time off work therefore potentially jeopardizing their jobs.

I was just wondering what others thought about exclusions and whether they feel there could be a better way and if so what that might be?

@GreenTulips
That might be what should happen. But it often doesn't happen. There are a few charities which are so overwhelmed they have a telephone waiting list.

We challenge endlessly.

Yes, there are charities, GreenTulips - e.g. the School Exclusion Project and the Communities Empowerment Network. But it's difficult to do, because only the governors can overturn an exclusion and, guess what, they tend to be reluctant to go against the headteacher's decision. Or there is the possibility of a Disability Discrimination appeal to the Special Educational Needs and Disability Tribunal, but that tends to be slow and complicated.

For all that exclusions may involve work on the part of the school, numbers are rising, so they don't seem to be massively deterred. The 2015-16 statistics, the latest available, show that that year the number of permanent exclusions in state-funded schools rose from around 30.5 a day to 35.2; fixed period exclusions increased from 1590 a day to 1790. 460 permanent exclusions were referred to independent review panels, of which 20 resulted in an offer of reinstatement. IRPs don't have power to reinstate , all they can do is refer cases back to the governors with a direction or recommendation to reconsider.

Why should teachers give up their Saturday to run detentions?!!

Parents who give their kids a long list of boring jobs for the entire day or make them sit on their bed doing nothing and ensuring the day is not seen as a holiday are what the system relies on.

Schools usually have a plan in place that needs to be shown that it's followed

Example if X does Y then Z should happen - they can't exclude if these things haven't happened
It should be then reviewed
Y isn't working so we intend to try A

So what's going wrong? Are so few parents of SEN kids fed up of fighting the system that they just accept exclusions?

Besides the child in question doesn't have SEN so off topic really

Maybe you care if you and your children have to pay extra taxes resulting from this

My children and I will always have to pay taxes. The amount taken in my pay slip has no correlation to the amount of people inside the CJS at anyone time. The government will always take more year upon year.

Or if your child is the victim of a crime committed by someone who might never have resorted to crime if his educational needs had been met?

That is genuinely laughable. There is absolutely no need to commit crime in the UK. Educational needs met or not. There's always the choice.

Ceto
What baffles me is that in many European countries school exclusions are virtually unknown, yet their schools manage. Why can't ours?

Because education and educators are respected in other countries?
Because schools are seen as more than childcare?

Don’t be baffled, Ceto - Boney is spot on.

An ingrained culture of respecting education and teachers is not the case in the UK, where to many it’s seen as “us against them”.

It would be interesting to know the % of children from Chinese and Indian backgrounds who end up excluded.

This thread is making me cross.
I accept that most excluded kids have unmet needs but these are not due to lack of effort by schools. Schools are seriously underfunded and understaffed.
Children who display very disruptive behaviour for whatever reason, disrupt learning and can cause their peers distress. I've worked in education for over 25 years and have witnessed this first hand several times. I've also witnessed parents not accepting their child's behaviour, not working with the school thereby making the problem worse.
I also find it amazing that so many people on here think the needs of one indivisible trumps that of all the other pupils. Sometimes exclusion is needed to redress the balance for the majority so they can attend school safely, in a calm environment and learn. I've seen children/classes (and staff) visibly shaken and distressed by the violent and aggressive actions of troubled individuals. We need more specialist behaviour support to help those at risk of exclusion for all pupils' sake.

We need more specialist behaviour support to help those at risk of exclusion for all pupils' sake.

But we don't. In fact there is less and less support available. What are those parents who are absolutely desperate for support but cannot access any as the school doesn't have funding, Cahms refusing to accept referral from GP etc supposed to to???

If you ever read the news you will know the state of Camhs and the way children with additional needs/behavioural issues/MH issues are let down.

But yeah, excluding the few is always the easy way out!

That is genuinely laughable. There is absolutely no need to commit crime in the UK. Educational needs met or not. There's always the choice.

Great. So would you be happy for your child to be the victim of a crime committed by someone who didn't need to commit a crime, but nevertheless did because their disabilities (e.g. a tendency to melt down when presented with sensory overload) had never been addressed?

But, of course, that is essentially a side issue. You are perfectly happy for other people's children to be thrown on the rubbish heap so long as your precious little ones are OK. You have no sense or understanding of the social benefits that accrue to everyone if that doesn't happen. I think that tells us all we need to know.

Don’t be baffled, Ceto - Boney is spot on.

I don't think so. I think the reality is that we simply don't devote sufficient resources to education, as Macaroni says. Also we impose all sorts of ridiculous expectations that other countries manage fine without, e.g. rigid school uniform rules.

I also find it amazing that so many people on here think the needs of one indivisible trumps that of all the other pupils

I don't think that's what people are saying, Macaroni. The point is that if the needs of that one individual are met so that violent and disruptive incidents simply don't happen, it's a win-win for every one. Specialist behavioural support would certainly help, but it does also need proper SEN support given that behavioural techniques won't work with some types of difficulty.

But don't you see? OPs DSD doesn't have SEN but yet time and resources are being diverted away from those in genuine need of help, to those who just behave badly for the fun of it! And gets a day sunbathing to boot!!

This isn't a SEN thread -

Well done DSD for wasting precious time and money hope you got a good tan

But don't you see? OPs DSD doesn't have SEN

how do you know? just because OP says so. SN are not always obvious and the child's parents may just not have had the courtesy to share their DD's diagnosis with the OP? Child may have undiagnosed SN? Or child my just be a brat. But we do not know and neither does OP. And exclusions hit pupils with SN far more often then other students so I don't really see how you can disconnect this thread from SEN/SN. They are intrinsically linked!

Ceto

there are many African countries that have far fewer resources put towards education yet they have far fewer issues due to the pupils knowing how precious education is.

Don't get me wrong there are many things wrong with the education system in England, but one of the main things that is wrong is the constant devaluing of the the system (and teachers) by anyone with issues that aren't (always) the fault of those on the frontline.

ginger I would expect a step parent to know if their step child had SEN

sail, - fair point, I totally missed that bit

It really depends on why they were suspended, some reasons i do think are ridiculous and also i am aware teachers do get it wrong at times and punish the wrong child. If there's a genuine reason for excluding a child then the parents need to back the school by enforcing the punishment at home. However, if it was me and I found my child hadn't actually done anything to deserve it, I wouldn't then enforce a punishment, I would back my child and look into further action to get it struck from their record. I know a parents was suspended for 2 days because she had pink trims on her socks that you wouldn't even see. Thats just one ridiculous reason I would have been on my childs side for.

@sinceyouask I can’t even begin to imagine how tough that is. My eldest was periodically aggressive and disruptive which sadly has continued on into adulthood. I now have no contact with him for the preservation of the rest of my children. Really big virtual hug for you xx

The point of exclusion is to make life difficult for parents as well as the student. Pupils are not excluded for no reason and the ones that are make life SO difficult for teachers and students in school by stopping learning taking place.
No well behaved child has ever been excluded - the onus is on parents to sort out their children. Schools should not be expected to 'train' children when the parent/parents are failing.
School is for education, if one child disrupts the learning of 30 other pupils in the classroom then they should be removed from said situation.

boneybacknefferson agree

Exclusion is a last resort when nothing else works. And there isn't a lot school can do these days. Their hands are tied. And difficult badly behaved pupils take up a lot of resources so other children are neglected. And sometimes all the resources in the world aren't the answer.

If excision causes inconvenience to parents then perhaps they will take steps to ensure child behaves in school and doesn't land up being excluded in the first place.