To not understand exclusion from school

[witchofzog]

This is a genuine question so perhaps aibu is not the right place but I just don't get it as it often punishes parents more than dc's. I get that for pupils who are particularly disruptive they need to be removed for a period of time so other pupils dont suffer but then surely isolation or a period of detentions would be more effective (though of course I know these then need to be staffed)

I say this because of dsd's school. She was excluded during the summer for 2 days and spent it sunbathing on her mum's new patio furniture. She was laughing about it saying it was like a mini holiday. 2 of her friends were also excluded. One of whom spent the exclusion in a similar way and one of whose parents took away all privileges and made sure it was a pretty boring couple of days, which is what I think should be done. I know the onus is on the parents to re-inforce correct behaviour in their dc's but at the same time, exclusions happen from year 7 where pupils sometimes are 11 or 12 which is very young to be left alone all day and could result in the parent having to take time off work therefore potentially jeopardizing their jobs.

I was just wondering what others thought about exclusions and whether they feel there could be a better way and if so what that might be?

[lessworriedaboutthecat]

When I was at School I was suspended for dogging (truanting in case your wondering) it. More a reward than a punishment really.

[TheHungryDonkey]

There are plenty of schools out there that do unlawful exclusions. I’ve seen it used and not recorded as a way of pushing out children with disabilities instead of putting in support.

I wouldn’t always take an exclusion at face value. It’s not always because a child has done a terrible thing.

My child’s last school deliberately pushed out all children with ASD. Everyone whether they needed support or not. I even have an email from the head saying not to bother bringing him in and he would authorise absence for a week. My child hadn’t done anything wrong at all. Just had ASD is all. No bodies give a shit that this happens. As a result I had to quit my
Job.

I know there will be teachers out here who will jump in and say that it’s not possible for this to happen, but actually, it is. It’s a shameful secret in education.

[sinceyouask]

Don't patronise me, sailorcherries, and for goodness sake try reading what I actually write. Then you may notice that I did not say that any of that was the school's fault, I did not say that they should be expected to find extra staff to supervise him. I did not say the exclusion was wrong. My disgust was directed towards the "it is good that it inconveniences the parents" attitude.

If it happened in the work place or at a place of HE/FE he wouldn't simply be excluded for a day.
Wtf are you on about? You don't know what happened or anything about our situation. And he was excluded for a week, not a day. And it caused absolute fucking havoc, which no doubt some people will think it a good thing. Yet I managed it as I manage everything else. Because I am already pretty fucking motivated, and don't need patronising bollocks from people who want to make my life even harder to motivate me further.

[Iprefercoffeetotea]

Behaviour must be pretty bad for exclusion though. Usually the last resort

Not really. Most schools exclude for any sort of violent or physical behaviour, even if it's a one-off and may not even be malicious. I wish schools would take verbal bullying as seriously.

It doesn't have to be particularly bad, and it is certainly not behaviour that most parents would condone. We put kids into situations that we would never expect adults to put up with, then expect children to behave perfectly. Sometimes I can absolutely understand why a child would lose it. Violence is never an answer but I am not sure exclusion is the answer either. Internal isolation would seem a more sensible approach.

There does seem to be a bit of a view among some schools/caregivers and parents that parents can control exactly what their kids do at school.

Funnily enough, parents don't tell their kids "really wind up x and y/remember to be rude to teacher z in school today" . Quite the opposite. Try being a bit less judgmental and sanctimonious.

[Iprefercoffeetotea]

If it happened in the work place or at a place of HE/FE he wouldn't simply be excluded for a day

But it would not happen at the workplace/place of HE/FE because adults don't behave the same way as kids.

[Papergirl1968]

As always, some posters are quick to judge the parents. My adopted dds have challenging behaviour and have been excluded numerous times.
I always back the school on sanctions and have never moaned about being inconvenienced. I initially withheld tv, phones etc and tried to make them study during school hours but it inevitably led to me being attacked, or the dds running off.
They are also supposed to not be seen out and about during exclusions but I take them with me to do the food shopping etc, and occasionally if I’m meeting a friend for a coffee or a meal. It’s either that or not go myself and at times they been excluded, gone back to school, and been excluded again within a few hours, so I have no choice really but to get on with day to day life and I prefer to gave them with me than getting up to goodness knows what at home.
I used to think like some of you, bad behaviour is due to poor parenting.
Now I know it’s not, at least not in some cases.
Don’t judge me til you’ve walked a mile in my shoes.

[Aki99]

Where are the parents being judged? The commenters don't appear to be blaming the parents for bad behaviour but it is still their responsibility to sort it out

[Steeley113]

Why do people assume it has to be a series events that lead to an exclusion? I was excluded at high school at age 13 for a 1 off offence. I called a teacher a cunt. I’d never even had a detention nor have I since! I’m actually a functioning member of society whilst I agree I was wrong (although I stand by my opinion, the teacher WAS a cunt) I don’t think it warranted an exclusion and it did really inconvenience my parents. I was made to stay in my room all day with no tech and they were pretty pissed at me.

[witchofzog]

Dsd goes to an academy school so it's slightly different I think. They have a lot of rules which are very strict and which the punishments seem quite extreme and these then escalate. So for example last winter she had a detention for keeping her coat on past the school gates when it was very cold (They have to remove coats once on school grounds even in sub zero temperatures despite it being a huge school and a long walk before you get inside). She was then unwell and missed the detention so got 2 detentions but refused to go to the 2nd because she said it was unfair and then got isolation.

But in the summer it was because of being defiant, rude and showing off in front of her friends so this one was deserved. But I don't think it was the right punishment as she was over the moon. And her mum should definitely not have allowed the sunbathing.

I agree with some of the other posters who mentioned having to do something useful at the school and not interacting with friends. If she had been made to paint a gate instead like an example already given hen I doubt she would be so keen to repeat it.

Also my son was quite badly behaved in year 7. I worked with the school by engaging in person, over the telephone and by taking privileges and helping him with the work he was falling behind on. I couldn't have done anymore. I was a single parent and I needed my job desperately. If he had been excluded without notice like dsd has been it could have resulted in me losing my job and home. Luckily as he got older his behaviour improved and he is now doing well. But exclusion would definitely have punished me. He would not have been upset by it and therefore would not have learnt from it

[Papergirl1968]

Aki99 Titty said clearly its down to the parents when a child behaves that badly.
Another couple of posters said the parents should be inconvenienced.
Read the first page again.

[Papergirl1968]

Sorry Titsy not titty.

[Ceto]

I would seriously take issue with sailorcherries statement that none of sinceyouask's son's problems are the school's fault. When a school takes a pupil, the staff take on the responsibility to use their best endeavours to identify and meet his SEN; ultimately, that means making referrals for expert advice, requesting an EHCP, co-operating with the parent to ensure that the EHCP is actually fit for purpose to meet the child's needs, and putting in place all the support set out in the EHCP. An awful lot of information in sinceyouask's post screams out that the school simply isn't doing this, despite her best efforts to ask them to do so.

A lot of the smug posts on here about removing these awful disruptive students ignore the shameful fact that a disproportionately high number of children with SEN get excluded from schools, despite the fact that the DfE's guidance in exclusions emphasises several times that before they do this schools should be doing their utmost to ensure that those SEN are properly identified and fully supported. In all too many cases, children kick off because they are stressed out and frustrated by communication and sensory difficulties which are just ignored. That simply means that they are being punished for their disabilities.

Schools in many other countries are not allowed to exclude; Finland, for example, doesn't, but still manages to produce excellent results. Why are our schools getting it so wrong?

[sinceyouask]

The commenters don't appear to be blaming the parents for bad behaviour but it is still their responsibility to sort it out

1. A number of them are
   
2. How would you like us to 'sort it out'?

[PeonyBucket]

Totally agree with LoniceraJaponica

Ditto

[OneInEight]

Rather than blanket policies I think schools need to consider if exclusion is the right means to improve behaviour for each individual child. In ds2's case who misbehaved due to hatred of school and high anxiety it probably increased bad behaviour because he vastly preferred to be at home. In ds1's case who misbehaved due to high anxiety it increased bad behaviour because it increased his anxiety due to disruption of his routine. In both cases the fundamental cause of their bad behaviour was down to their ASC. This in no way is condoning their behaviour (which was pretty terrible) but just stating that exclusions were a totally inappropriate method to improve it. In both cases they needed strategies to help reduce their anxiety rather than punishments.

[ReanimatedSGB]

I work with schools and sometimes deal with exclusions (I am a clerk, so my job is to minute the meetings: I have no actual input).
It's usually the case that schools have tried all manner of things to help the kid modify his/her behaviour: not just punishments, but adapting timetables, extra supervision, mentoring etc. An ongoing (and worsening) problem is kids whose SEN is screamingly obvious but who don't yet have a statement or EHCP (because underfunded and understaffed EdPsych departments have a waiting list a mile long) - so the school hasn't got the funds to bring in specialist staff to help with the pupil. Yes, some teens are horrible little sods with parents who don't give a toss, but in a lot of cases it's a family struggling to care for a child with some form of neurodiversity, who is prone to lashing out, panicking or smashing things and who is getting too big for school staff to control. Mainstream schools have to consider the rest of the pupils as well - if classes are regularly being disrupted and equipment damaged, it's rough on the other kids.

[BringOnTheScience]

I just love how many of the PP have never experienced an exclusion and clearly have no idea how many steps will have been gone through leading to it and how many actions happen afterwards.

When DC2 was given a 1 day exclusion it was very much a last resort but enabled other support to be put into place. We were horrified, as behaviour at school was nothing like how things were at home. Things had to reach rock bottom before school accepted that they were part of the problem and the exclusion triggered arrangements for anger management and setting up counselling to get to the root cause.

The excluded day was spent constructively and was most definitely not a holiday. We had to attend a readmission meeting (further time off work) and a formal plan of action was drawn up. We have follow-up meetings twice each 1/2 term.

[lettingthedaysgoby]

The exclusion will (or should) be followed by a re-integration meeting with parents/carers, student and SLT. This is part of the process and will focus on the reasons for the exclusion, consequences of exclusions and what can be put in place to support the child (and family if necessary) to avoid further exclusions.

So an exclusion is usually after a series of detentions, internal sanctions and SLT behaviour panels and will make sure concern is recorded (Governors are informed about numbers and reasons for exclusions), one school I am involved with puts the returning student in front of a Governor's Disciplinary Panel after a five-day exclusion (or a concerning number of lesser ones) to drive home the seriousness of the student's actions and the consequences if the behaviour continues.

Sadly, the (de facto) budget cuts in schools and in Local Government and NHS mean accessing CAHMS, SS and other support is harder than it should be. But that's not the fault of the school (or the family). Exclusion is (or should be) the last resort, and should ring alarm bells for the student, the family and the school.

[lettingthedaysgoby]

Totally cross-posted with BringOnTheScience there...

[Allthewaves]

If mine were excluded they would be doing bloody chores and loose every single privileged for a month

[FitBitFanClub]

If he had been excluded without notice like dsd has been it could have resulted in me losing my job and home.... But exclusion would definitely have punished me.

You mean, if he had exhibited more appalling behaviour - which you have a role in, I'm afraid. It's called being an effective parent. Don't blame the school for your child.

[SoupDragon]

By the time your son's school had decided to exclude him they will have gone through all the other available sanctions. Exclusion is really a last resort. It is your responsibility as a parent to support the school if your son is behaving badly enough to justify an exclusion?

Nope. This was the first and only punishment for a one off incident.
And if you bothered to read what I said you would see that I did support the school and I did ensure the suspension was a punishment so you can wipe the off your face.

[TheHungryDonkey]

Governors are not always informed. Some head teachers like to governors.

[SoupDragon]

Oh, and DS had not been in trouble before and has not been in trouble since.

[Nousernameforme]

Another with an asd child here and he has been excluded twice pre diagnosis. In both incidents he had been physically violent towards staff members, and as so needed to be removed from the school enviroment. Not just as a consequence to himself, but also to show the other students that such behaviour wouldn't be tolerated.

School had my full support each time and his time at home was used to get to the bottom of why it happened. When it did we were able to go back to the school with the things that triggered the incidents and work with the school to minimise that happening in the future. It's been two years since his last exclusion so i would say it was an effective punishment.

There are rules in place during exclusion that the children can not be seen out and about during school hours. It is supposed to be difficult and inconvenient for the parents but not in a hah now you must look after your own children whilst we skip merrily away without a care in the world. Just that they have exhausted their options and now you need to step in and reinforce to your child that this can't happen