To not understand exclusion from school

[witchofzog]

This is a genuine question so perhaps aibu is not the right place but I just don't get it as it often punishes parents more than dc's. I get that for pupils who are particularly disruptive they need to be removed for a period of time so other pupils dont suffer but then surely isolation or a period of detentions would be more effective (though of course I know these then need to be staffed)

I say this because of dsd's school. She was excluded during the summer for 2 days and spent it sunbathing on her mum's new patio furniture. She was laughing about it saying it was like a mini holiday. 2 of her friends were also excluded. One of whom spent the exclusion in a similar way and one of whose parents took away all privileges and made sure it was a pretty boring couple of days, which is what I think should be done. I know the onus is on the parents to re-inforce correct behaviour in their dc's but at the same time, exclusions happen from year 7 where pupils sometimes are 11 or 12 which is very young to be left alone all day and could result in the parent having to take time off work therefore potentially jeopardizing their jobs.

I was just wondering what others thought about exclusions and whether they feel there could be a better way and if so what that might be?

Only the extremely naughty kids at my massive comp school we’re ever excluded

As I said above, it's not like that now. My husband said there were fights at his grammar school and the kids were not excluded, probably ended up in detention.

Any kind of physical behaviour at ds' school ends up with a minimum of a day's exclusion - no second chances. Just like it's detention for forgotten/not done homework - no second chances. You'd have had to have missed a few homeworks to get a detention in my school.

Just to give you an example. Years ago my son played football. One day he was at training or maybe the warm-up before a match and he bent over to do something, maybe do his laces or something. Anyway one of the other lads was passing and he looked over. I was looking at the time and I saw the thought process, he went over and kicked my son in the bottom. Everyone laughed.

If that had happened in school, the boy would have been excluded.

Some of you will say quite right too. I think it's a massive overreaction.

exclusion is the last resort

Can people please stop saying this, it is simply not true in many schools.

The high numbers of children with SEN/SN being excluded is a prime example of how schools are failing miserably at meeting the needs of children who need extra support.

The fact that kids with SEN/SN are being stereotyped as badly behaved is a problem, and it’s not helpful.

Although I would argue that every child who acts in a manner serious enough to warrant exclusion is lacking in support somewhere along the line, whether it’s educational or at home. I’m not talking about kids with SEN, if they are excluded it’s because the school has failed somehow.

And it simply is in many schools Iprefercoffee.

Notreally to lay the blame at the foot of the schools door is very short sighted. I teach in an area with circa 10,000 primary aged children. We have one additional provision school which can accommodate a maximum of 30, plus three schools geared towards more physical disabilities.
Budget cuts have meant the removal of all classroom assistants in high schools ans left one in primary schools. It is nigh on impossible to get 1:1 for a child with SEN who does not have a physical disability.

We are on our knees trying to accommodate all manner of needs and we can't. Schools and teachers up and down the country say as much whenever they are asked.

The problem is the policy of inclusive education as it does not work without the resources and support it needs.

Lloyd, don't you think it might be a better idea for that child's needs to be addressed so that he isn't disruptive and his education doesn't have to be disrupted either?

Yep and the parents can "address" the child's needs during the exclusion. In the mean time the other 25-30 pupils in the class might actually learn something

Are you happy when the children bullying your child are excluded?

That’s not to Lloyd but to the person Lloyd is quoting btw

Yep and the parents can "address" the child's needs during the exclusion

Yes, because it's that easy, of course.

Having a SEN should not excuse your child from exclusions if their behaviour warrants that. For their safety and wellbeing as well as the safety and wellbeing of everyone else.

of course not but chances are that the problem behaviour wouldn't have occured of the child would have the right support. Children with SN are often punished for the lack of support.

If you look up the statistics, you will see that a child with SN is far more likely to be excluded and this is usually due to the lack of support/lack of funding for the right school setting.

It isn't an SEN or brat binary! None of our students have an EHCP. Some do have ADHD, ODD. Some have mental health issues, some have experienced trauma, disruption, neglect, bullying. I will agree that leaving them unsupported in mainstream until year 10 or 11 with regular FTEs/internal exclusions is a poor way of dealing with them. For everyone.

I was excluded for 2 days for spitting at another student.

In my defence I was being severely bullied teacher had left the room and the game was empty my bag and throw the contents around the room including sanitary towels (I was 12 and humilated)
I spat at ring leader teacher came back the whole class take the bullies side I get sent to staff corridor where my mom was called and I was sent home for 2 days.

Funnily enough not 1 single adult asked why my stuff was all over the classroom. It's was just taken from the bullies that ide done it for no reason.

I wasn't a trouble maker at all believe it or not. I just snapped and not one adult cared enough to ask.

A child is usually only excluded as a last resort as far as I know, and it is because the school has reached the end of what they can do.

I don't think exclusion can be regarded as a 'punishment' as such, since most of them will be only too glad to be out of school. The school has a duty to the other children, and if someone's behaviour is so bad it has an effect on other students, then they should be excluded. What happens to them while they are not at school is the responsibility of the parent/guardian.

Get excluded for disruptive behaviour, got a SEN diagnosis.

you do not get a SEN diagnosis for disruptive behaviour but I guess you don't know that. It is pretty obvious that your knowledge of SN is just based on reading the Daily Fail.

Can I just point out that exclusions are NOT going to affect university applications! The only way that they would find out is if it was mentioned in their academic reference - it really isn't relevant to universities.

Children with SN are often punished for the lack of support

Absolutely agree with this.

@sailorcherries

The problem is not the inclusive education policy, it’s the lack of funding and support for children with SEN. I am not short sighted, nor am I making a knee jerk comment, I’m well aware of the lack of funding and support having been fighting the shitty system for many years. The fact is, whether it’s lack of funding or support, or a lack of effort, children with SEN ARE being failed and are being punished in the same way as NT children for behaviours associated with lack of support. Which is bang out of order no matter how you look at it.

I think that people use SEN too often to describe behaviour that could be fixed with discipline

If I had £1 for every time I’d heard this shite I’d be on a private beach in the fucking Bahamas by now. Do you know what helped DS1 to behave “appropriately” after 2 years of hell at a shitty nursery? The right support from School. I can’t slap his autism out of him, nor can I or should I punish or out of him, myself or my other two kids.
Comments like this are unhelpful and damaging.

But then I rather suspect you know that eight and I’ve just fed the GF. Ugh.

I think that people use SEN too often to describe behaviour that could be fixed with discipline

there are some right disablist cunts out there today!

@LloydSpinjago I don’t much care for anything someone who is quite prepared to write off a child is saying. Bullying is horrendous, my kids have all been targeted (because of their SEN as it happens) but I’m not stupid enough to assume that you can just boot a kid out of school and leave them to get on with it. Support and education is the way to get past NT bullying, it’s the ONLY way.

I’ll tell the disabilist asshats one thing. If I had ten pence every time I saw an NT child sneakily try to wind up the child with a disability so they kicked off In class I would be rich.

And you could guarantee those children would have the parents who would complain when actually it was their child being a bully.

Unsurprisingly this thread has gone down the SEND route.