AIBU to think the NHS should not be recommending hysterectomy to young girls

[pisacake]

NHS handout for 'young trans people in the UK'

www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/assets/media/17-15-02-A-Guide-For-Young-People.pdf

'Surgical Options'

"Hysterectomy
This surgery involves the removal of the interior female sexual organs. This prevents the risk of cancer and forever prevents periods or risk of pregnancy"

Sounds awesome doesn't it!

Here's the NHS advice on taking drugs

"Hormone Blockers
If blockers (or anti-androgens) are taken when younger, the effects from puberty are likely not to occur and a more passable body is likely to result."

Yes, that's right kids you can just skip puberty, and be Peter Pan. It's a brave new world where you are stuck with a micropenis for the rest of your life.

And what if your stupid parents don't agree?

"If you are under 16 a lot will depend on gaining the full support from your parents. In other countries hormone blockers can be given to younger transsexual people which will prevent the onset of unwanted secondary sex characteristics. This may mean that you look further than the UK for medical intervention. It would be undesirable to buy hormones over the internet without fully knowing what you are buying."

That's right kids! You can suppress those pesky unwanted secondary sex characteristics' by buying hormones on teh internetz. Yay NHS! Yay Aneurin Bevan!

And boys, thinking of becoming girls, it's NOTHING to worry about, you can chop off your balls and turn your dick inside out, it's perfectly normal! It will even improve your health, everything is awesome!

""Orchidectomy is the removal of the testes. This operation means that testosterone will no longer be naturally produced in the body and therefore you can do without your testosterone blocker. In general, the lower the dose of any drug the lower the health risks you will have. "

"Technology for SRS is quite advanced and with good surgery even gynaecologists are said to find it hard to distinguish a constructed vagina from a natal one. "

A constructed vagina huh? You mean like a sex toy? www.lovehoney.co.uk/sex-toys/male-sex-toys/pocket-vaginas/ I hear they are pretty realistic too.

This is NHS advice, albeit I don't think any doctor actually reviews this stuff before they print it, there seems to be an attitude that it would be transphobic to have any of this written by mainstream medics, so let's just let a self-selecting group of people with loud voices do it. (Like the group Mermaids, who are recommended in the handout, and who basically consist of one woman who took her son to Thailand at 16 to have 'bottom surgery'.)

And don't think all these pamphlets and websites telling you that hysterectomy and puberty blocking are awesome have no effect on kids. Nope, there is a MASSIVE increase in kids identifying as trans.

Here's an article today from St Albans www.hertsad.co.uk/news/increase-in-trans-support-is-offered-as-child-gender-fluidity-rises-in-st-albans-district-1-5264057

Lots and lots of girls deciding they are boys because "He wouldn’t wear knickers and refused to play with girls’ toys" and the NHS happily supporting that. (That biologically female child is seven-years-old, and per the NHS handout above you will get GREAT results, by taking puberty blockers follow by testosterone, which "offers very effective masculinisation for FTMs". Apparently said child is "adamant he will grow up and get married and be the husband and daddy and he will have a wife". )

There is obviously no meaningful consent possible by pre-pubescent child to puberty blocking, because they have no real conception of what puberty hormones would do to their body AND brain. But apparently there is no concern whatsoever about this, because EVERYTHING IS AWESOME when you're trans. So much better than being a boring old 'cis' female with periods and cancer and pregnancy and all those silly 'ciswoman' problems.

I have to correct whoever said transvestitism is a sexual fetish. For some people it is a sexual fetish, for many women who dress in male clothing/vice versa it is not at all

No, women don’t have the sexual fetish autogynephilia. It’s an explicitly male fetish. Men who cross dress get a sexual kick. Not to be confused with gender dysphoria, which is a rejection of their masculinity.

Feminist groups formed an allegiance with David Davies MP to have a meeting in Parliament. The first time where groups other than trans pressure groups have been allowed to put their case.

The links below are the write-ups of all four people. Stephanie Davis Arai, for those of you who are worried about children, is the one who is fighting on our children’s behalf.

Miranda Yardley is a transwoman.

James Caspian was in the national press recently because the ethics committee where he works, Bath Spa university, refused his request for research into detransitioning, on the basis of the negative backlash they might receive on social media.

www.transgendertrend.com/transgender-law-concerns/
(Stephanie Davis Arai)

www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/James-Caspian-talk.pdf
(James Caspian)

www.socfem.net/2017/11/equality-act-2010
(Judith Green)

mirandayardley.com/en/how-transgender-became-the-new-black-presentation-in-parliament-on-31-october-2017
(Miranda Yardley)

I hope the links work. I’m a bit basic when it comes to copying links from other threads.

What is shocking, is that mumsnet have been talking about the issues raised in these links for several years. But it looks as though, this might be the very first time that parliament have even considered them.

And, now they know. They cannot, ever, in the future say they were not forewarned.

If any parents, in the future, wonder how this could have happened, the answer will be because parents concerns were dismissed.

I read about James Caspian - very interesting. He refers to surgeons and urologists who do mtf and ftm genital surgeries who mention the reversal surgeries they are now being asked to carry out.

If I was a doctor I don't know what I would do, too scared to say no for fear of being called transphobic and ridiculed for that / also scared about how to vet people so i wouldn't wind up with an emotional wreck i had created coming back to me saying why did you allow me to do this and can you give me back what i was born with? Urrrrgh probably not!

I think it's easier for Prof Robert and Nut to speak out because they are already so established - not sure how the 'average' doctor would manage.

Also anyone interested in this might also find it interesting to read about the rise of victim culture and how the two align. Victim status now gives far more power than the alternative and is a hugely powerful way of shutting down opposition. If organisations like Mermaids etc can convince you and society you are a victim then anything they do is beyond reproach.

Thetoothyteeth

Don’t ask me to cite this, because I can’t remember where I read it, but I was reading an article about doctors being asked to refer prison inmates for surgery/treatment.

They were male sex offenders. It was patently obvious to the doctor involved, that they wanted the surgery, in order to transition and then get placed amongst female inmates in a woman’s prison. (This issue has been highlighted by the prison authority, over, and over).

The doctor was utterly conflicted. They knew full well that they were being asked to refer surgery which, they were convinced, would be used as an argument to access women in order to sexually exploit them (bearing in mind that surgery/treatment doesn’t have to involve removal of a penis).

The point they were trying to make is that they have been given two conflicting sets of guidelines. The first one is affirmation at all costs, and the second one is do no harm.

Whereas the individual concerned could be thought of as taking responsibility for their own surgery, the doctor, by default, was being forced to accept responsibility for what they would do next in a women’s prison.

I have to say, this issue has absolutely ruined, what little faith I had in our lawmakers.

I can’t help thinking that this is a product of the sexiest nature of our society. The people making the laws are predominately men. And you only have to look at the #metoo campaign to realise quite how spectacularly blind men are to the problems that women face.

@datun i agree with you re the doctors and i think it would be slightly better if more female law makers were involved but i have seen some pretty merciless women too (midwives thread i lost my shit over recently) and in real life.

So I think whoever is in charge ultimately they are all faced with the constant pressure to appear pc, liberal and acting within the restraints of the equalities act. And also yes their doctor's oath of do no harm. There should be a way to prevent people abusing the loopholes in the legislation without eroding the human rights / equalities provisions the acts provide for those who need them. I really do not think male prisoners convicted of sex offences should be eligible for ANY type of gender reassignment medication / placement / surgery. Just don't know if anyone is brave enough to come out and say that in the world of policy making.

I watched the Ross Kemp documentary on prisons recently (yes i love ross kemp!) and he interviewed a convicted peadophile who said he should be released, wasn't a threat to society but still maintained that the children in the material he watched were enjoying themselves. To think someone like him (living evil) could be eligible to be allowed in women's spaces in prison (pregnant women, maternity units) or to be able to access spaces when released where women bring their young children with them - chills me to my bones.

I really do not think male prisoners convicted of sex offences should be eligible for ANY type of gender reassignment medication / placement / surgery. Just don't know if anyone is brave enough to come out and say that in the world of policy making.

Given that the government has been dragged kicking and screaming by the ECHR to give prisoners the right to vote (and even then it's been couched in such terms as to exclude most prisoners from being able to place a cross in a box), it is a struggle to see why MPs are so afraid of saying that convicted sex offenders have to wait until after they have served their prison sentence to be able to undertake medical treatment for gender dysphoria. It's not exactly a vote loser or something that the MSM will object to, is it?

@olenas it is a struggle isn't it. Transgender agendas seem to be treated differently to anything else.

Eleanor mind your biscuit doesn't give you heartburn.

Care to engage or do you just want to bobby knock and run away?

If it’s true that a university ethics committee turned down a research project for approval based on their fear of social media attacks, that is definitely cause for a formal complaint to that university, but also incredibly worrying. What kind of an academic or social media climate makes an ethics committee behave like that?

ChattyLion

Google James Caspian. The chap in question. It was in the news.

They were worried that the backlash would reflect badly on the University.

I was at that meeting in Westminster as a representative of this website
fairplayforwomen.com/

Ourwebsite came about during a time when women were being silenced here on MN and many long time members were banned. Things are better now, threads like this are allowed to remain and people are allowed to talk.

Im also in the Labour party and hold a position in my local constituency. We are not allowed to talk. Motions have been put forward to our brnach, our neighbouring branch and many other branches to expel members and officers who dont toe the transgender line and who attempt to debate this. It IS being debated but it has to be in secret, in small conciousness raising groups. Its like the bloody French Resistance.

Its saying something that it took connecting up with a Tory MP who shared our concerns, that this meeting even took place. We had to keep it very quiet to prevent it being shut down - as many other attempts to have an alternative view heard have been shut down, and people have actually been violently attacked. I know the people attacked. Its real, it happened. Im a long time poster here and MN is where I first learned about all of this.

I spent the Sunday before the meeting sharing cake and coffee with James Caspian and Im absolutely shocked by some of what he told me - and he is someone who has been working for many many years in this field, who is a trustee of the Beaumont Trust, who educates and trains on Transgender issues. I sat beside another psychologist at the meeting and he says they are afraid to practice because of the Memorandum of Understanding on Conversion Therapy published a couple of weeks back, which doesnt allow them to explore anything else that could be causing the patients feelings if the patient says that they are trans. They are absolutely handcuffed. He said that therapists are scared to explore other options, or even wait and see because they will be accused of conversion therapy, but if they send someone down that route, when they come in primed from the internet on what to say, they fear being sued for not preventing it when it all goes wrong. If they discuss it amongst themselves professionally they heard words such as 'heretic' and 'you are not allowed to say that'. One therapist postulated that it could be the beginning of the end for psychotherapy.

James Caspian was persuaded to attempt to crowdfund to cover the legal costs pertaining to this research
www.crowdjustice.com/case/uphold-freedom-of-speech-in-our-universities/?utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=backer_social&utm_reference=059d8338fc9c11bdf0a4fffc96fe9b10&utm_campaign=uphold-freedom-of-speech-in-our-universities&utm_content=post_pledge_popup

NettleTea

I’ve read the excellent summaries of that meeting.

In your opinion, do you think what was discussed will have any effect?

I understand that pressure groups are now going to get their say.

Were the people who listened in your meeting aware that the suicide figures are wrong, aware of all the misinformation that gets disseminated?

What I’m trying to say is, do you think it will work?

@nettletea just as i thought re psychologists. Very concerning.

Having read all the information laid out on this thread, I really do wonder why so many MN'ers are quick to ignore evidence, refuse to listen to the reality and experience of health professionals, refuse to at least engage with the debate? It's almost as if they have disengaged critical analysis and resorted to behaviour of medieval times - fingers in ears and hurl stones at the heretics (or in this case, hurl biscuits, insults and sometimes abuse).

We are not making this up people. Never before have the general public had access to so much information so please - do the research for yourselves. Have a think, if you disagree, then let's open dialogue but don't be so blind as to disagree with us because you think we're bigots or Terfs or transphobic. I don't know any MN'er that wouldn't support the Trans movement if they wanted support and recognition and protection. I don't know anyone who wouldn't march with them to petition for more gender neutral spaces or a third space, but TA's don't want that. They want Women's spaces and will use any method (verbal abuse, physical abuse, threatening, intimidating, silencing, no-platforming) to get it. The very worst reality, is that these TA's are equally as aggressive to other Transwomen who simply want to get on with their lives. Transwomen who, despite their often crippling dysphoria, don't ever pretend to be something that they are not. They are not women, they are Transwomen and I would be proud to have them and their significant understanding of the human condition, as a friend.

I'm baffled and concerned and becoming more and more frightened about why women are so apathetic about this and content to throw their own rights and their daughter's rights under the bus to please the small minority of men who claim they are women.

Datun

Ive no bloody idea. I felt hopeful, Ive seen a few more responses from MPs who seem to have actually started reading a bit deeper, but really I am not sure at all. The trans groups seem to be so far ahead of us - everywhere stuff keeps popping up - like the Office of National Statistics stuff - that came out of the blue to me - we are just fire fighting, and on no money just a need to at least TRY. At least I can hold my head up and say I TRIED

And today, another motion put forward in our CLP to try to shut us down, to stop the debate before it begins, because I think thats the tactic they go for - once we start unpicking this nobody can say it doesnt at least need thinking about - so they try to stop the debate.

They have been clever. They use the public knowledge of the transexuals, and how hard it was for them, and they use gender dysphoria as a pity technique, jammed on the back of the awful stuff down to the LGB, to garner sympathy. But that isnt the majority of transgender people, but the public doesnt know that. The public thinks that they are supporting people who have undergone full gender reassignment surgery and just want to be left alone to live a quiet life, or are suffering and in therapy.

Those people are a tiny minority, and whoever is driving this knows that. They also know that the psychologists know that too, because in the past not everyone who applied for a gender recognition certificate was given one. Has anyone asked why they were not? Why the certificates that allowed you to live you life as a woman was refused? Why you might not be 'safe' to have one? Because by removing the gatekeeping need altogether (whilst acknowledging that it needed improvement), removing any mental health category, but still allowing a certificate which allows you SEX based permissions, surely raises some questions. Because safe spaces are based on SEX not gender, and whether you think gender is real or you think its a social construct, it doesnt affect your sex. And THAT still needs protecting.

I think they rely (and it has worked so far, even in the consultation process) in everyone going ooooh 'something' phobic, we dont want to be that and as a knee jerk reaction they just go 'of course, we dont want to be phobics, we will just change this for you'

They dont see the wider implications

Same with adding 'trans conversion' on the back of the horror we all feel about what was done to gay people. But again, they dont see that just left alone most of the kids showing gender dysphoria turn out to be gay. Ironically transing a kid is gay conversion by stealth.

People dont think much. They like soundbites and quick news. They jump to virtue signalling good intention responses.

I wish that we could spend as much time telling kids its perfectly OK to be different that we do telling them to adjust their bodies to conform.

NettleTea

Yes, I totally agree with everything you say.

Have you seen this thread? (blood pressure warning)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3081729-Trans-guidelines-for-schools-in-Scotland

Is it going to give me the rage?

OK. On the first paragraph and already got an issue. Do the intersex people WANT to be lumped in with the trans ness?

Intersex is a mutation, its not a sexuality or identity. Just because it affects the reproductive organs and hormonal profile.

I thought it wasnt about genitals

yup
Rage

NettleTea

yup
Rage

Sorry.

(proffers half empty bumper box of blood pressure meds)

gynaecologists are said to find it hard to distinguish a constructed vagina from a natal one.

I find this slightly hard to believe.