AIBU to think the NHS should not be recommending hysterectomy to young girls

[pisacake]

NHS handout for 'young trans people in the UK'

www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/assets/media/17-15-02-A-Guide-For-Young-People.pdf

'Surgical Options'

"Hysterectomy
This surgery involves the removal of the interior female sexual organs. This prevents the risk of cancer and forever prevents periods or risk of pregnancy"

Sounds awesome doesn't it!

Here's the NHS advice on taking drugs

"Hormone Blockers
If blockers (or anti-androgens) are taken when younger, the effects from puberty are likely not to occur and a more passable body is likely to result."

Yes, that's right kids you can just skip puberty, and be Peter Pan. It's a brave new world where you are stuck with a micropenis for the rest of your life.

And what if your stupid parents don't agree?

"If you are under 16 a lot will depend on gaining the full support from your parents. In other countries hormone blockers can be given to younger transsexual people which will prevent the onset of unwanted secondary sex characteristics. This may mean that you look further than the UK for medical intervention. It would be undesirable to buy hormones over the internet without fully knowing what you are buying."

That's right kids! You can suppress those pesky unwanted secondary sex characteristics' by buying hormones on teh internetz. Yay NHS! Yay Aneurin Bevan!

And boys, thinking of becoming girls, it's NOTHING to worry about, you can chop off your balls and turn your dick inside out, it's perfectly normal! It will even improve your health, everything is awesome!

""Orchidectomy is the removal of the testes. This operation means that testosterone will no longer be naturally produced in the body and therefore you can do without your testosterone blocker. In general, the lower the dose of any drug the lower the health risks you will have. "

"Technology for SRS is quite advanced and with good surgery even gynaecologists are said to find it hard to distinguish a constructed vagina from a natal one. "

A constructed vagina huh? You mean like a sex toy? www.lovehoney.co.uk/sex-toys/male-sex-toys/pocket-vaginas/ I hear they are pretty realistic too.

This is NHS advice, albeit I don't think any doctor actually reviews this stuff before they print it, there seems to be an attitude that it would be transphobic to have any of this written by mainstream medics, so let's just let a self-selecting group of people with loud voices do it. (Like the group Mermaids, who are recommended in the handout, and who basically consist of one woman who took her son to Thailand at 16 to have 'bottom surgery'.)

And don't think all these pamphlets and websites telling you that hysterectomy and puberty blocking are awesome have no effect on kids. Nope, there is a MASSIVE increase in kids identifying as trans.

Here's an article today from St Albans www.hertsad.co.uk/news/increase-in-trans-support-is-offered-as-child-gender-fluidity-rises-in-st-albans-district-1-5264057

Lots and lots of girls deciding they are boys because "He wouldn’t wear knickers and refused to play with girls’ toys" and the NHS happily supporting that. (That biologically female child is seven-years-old, and per the NHS handout above you will get GREAT results, by taking puberty blockers follow by testosterone, which "offers very effective masculinisation for FTMs". Apparently said child is "adamant he will grow up and get married and be the husband and daddy and he will have a wife". )

There is obviously no meaningful consent possible by pre-pubescent child to puberty blocking, because they have no real conception of what puberty hormones would do to their body AND brain. But apparently there is no concern whatsoever about this, because EVERYTHING IS AWESOME when you're trans. So much better than being a boring old 'cis' female with periods and cancer and pregnancy and all those silly 'ciswoman' problems.

I really struggle with the viewpoint that being gender critical equates to being a bigot, having lived most of my life through the bombings and shootings in Northern Ireland. I find that abhorrent.

I have an autistic son who categorically hates stereotypical views on how the genders should behave. He has never 'joined in' but sees himself as a male. He thinks the whole thing is ridiculous.

@elendon logistically it makes no sense but in today's climate it is without a doubt the most effective way to shutdown anyone who stands in the way of organisations like mermaids.

It would be undesirable to buy hormones over the internet without fully knowing what you are buying.

Un-Fucking-Desirable?? How about illegal and downright dangerous as you can never know that a) what you're buying is what you think you're buying b) that you're using it as safely as it can be used - ie under the care of a doctor who's doing regular tests and checkups!

I think part of the problem is that people see the NHS logo and think this it must be evidence based and in line with guidelines even when the booklet itself says it isn't - it's a group of young people and what they've put together. It's all the pros, the permanent changes aren't well worded (lower voice but no mention of larger adam's apple) , their 'not trans' section is just discussing other alternative identities, no mention of detransitioned people (no surprise - we have doctors doing reversal surgeries but universities are blocking research on our experiences to help prevent these things - how can we have NICE guidelines then?), and a couple annoying errors when discussing anatomy.

Dysphoric kids deserve so much better than this mess, as do all other kids.

Personally, kinda wanna know what guidelines recommend Stone Butch Blues for young people. Great book, very powerful and helpful for me - in my thirties. However, it has rape pretty much from chapter 1 and has sexual and other violence throughout - it's about a lesbian living in '70s America. It's also an old book written by an author who uses trans and gender/sex-role noncomforming interchangeably (but not really in that book, that because their thing later). Might recommend it for someone in their early twenties but no way for a 15 year old going through issues, it's really heavy. I'm thinking they just googled trans books as that one is very much not pro-hormones in the slightest. I recommend it, it was very cathartic for me, but with all the content warnings.

This is dreadful to read. For those who think the 'trans issue has been done to death', I am afraid there seems to a new horror nearly every day as poster above said, thank goodness for Mumsnet for being informative and fair.

@raininsummer it was me who wrote thAT. What i meant was - mumsnet knows all this, lots of people do, haven't seen any sign of it stopping though! That's the scary part. Horror movie come to life really.

I am so glad I am not a kid today.

This ^^ 1000000x this.

I’m finding it hard enough to get pregnant without having to deal with the fact my parents REMOVED MY REPODUCTIVE ORGANS because I was a Tom boy!

@FizzyWaterAndElderflower - from what I gather having lurked around on a few dodgy subreddits that I won't link here, buying oestrogen online without prescription is legal (if stupid) as long as it's from outside the UK (or possibly EU, can't remember). Buying testosterone online without a prescription is illegal. I read somewhere it's because testosterone has a higher abuse potential (sports, bodybuilding). I don't know what the legal situation is with puberty blockers.

and downright dangerous as you can never know that a) what you're buying is what you think you're buying b) that you're using it as safely as it can be used - ie under the care of a doctor who's doing regular tests and checkups!

Spot on.

Mumsnet as a collective know this, I agree. Each thread though will be informing at least one more person of whats going on, given the massive amount of members there is. I expect each day the membership grows. And there may be new lurkers who are unaware of it all too. Yes, trans threads may be 'done to death' as some people claim (though I rather suspect the problemin many cases is actually that they want as few people to be informed about what going on as possible and are aghast that the usual 'this is transphobic!' cries don't work here) but they are still very informative and really...everyone should be informed about this. I think, the more people that know whats actually being proposed, the better.

This may be what kills the NHS, which is exactly what the tories want to happen. Even better, they can blame it on the liberal left-wing as they were the ones that wanted this...

This really worries me. I can see a massive backlash in a few years time with a lot of lawsuits. The NHS doesn't fund reversal of transition - but how can it not seek to rectify (to whatever extent is possible) its own mis-diagnoses and harm caused to vulnerable children and young people?

If anyone wonders why someone doesn't say something, professionals are afraid to speak out, institutions are preventing research on this subject and, those who do speak out, are vilified, abused and sacked.

This includes people who have worked to help and support transgender people for years - not 'bigots' - just people who are genuinely concerned but are attacked for questioning the new orthodoxy:

nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41384473

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/lord-winston-warning-on-sex-change-surgery-sparks-abuse-v0c6q95pb

Absolutely shocking and utterly depressing. Is this what society has become?

@batshite yes very fair. I take back what i said - i just find it so so so depressing and it makes me feel distrust for the medical profession. And fuels my distrust of the nhs also. All: a mess.

BatShite

I was a lurker like you described and completely agree. I had no idea of what was going on.

I also was very blind to everyday sexism (sometimes I wish I hadn’t ‘drank the coolaid’ on that particular issue as now I spend a significant about of time in a state of irritated anger )

@betty maybe that's why the pamphlet is written by kids and non medical professionals and why people are shafted to mermaids? I don't know but maybe legally the nhs won't be culpable and have arse covered somewhere by outsourcing a lot of this and only prescribing if a psychologist from a sector outside the nhs has said go ahead.

IIRC Mermaids had a sizeable lottery grant last year.

GIRES actually said " We want medication to be available to all gender non-conforming people". Read that again. Instead of celebrating and supporting kids who don't fit neatly into one or other of the rigid stereotype boxes, they are made to feel that they have to change their bodies to match their personality?

And If kids are gay or lesbian - does that not seem deeply homophobic - or a kind of gay eugenics?

It is really important to find what your children are being taught in school, and what the source of the information is.

Shit. Do you have a link to that gires quote, Label?

It makes no sense.

We are being asked to believe that on the one hand trans is not an illness and shouldn't be treated as such and we need to 'demedicalise' the process of getting a gender recognition certificate, and on the other hand we are asked to believe that medication should be available for all gender non-conforming people, waiting lists must be slashed for hormones and surgery and there must be an end to exploring the issues gatekeeping of physical treatments because otherwise children will kill themselves.

Labelmystery

Is that GIRES quote from one of the links?

Sick and disturbing. I just can't understand why the government and our public bodies are buying into this insanity. I agree with PPs that the NHS will be sued to the moon and back over this in the future. So upsetting to think of the children being sterilised and maimed because of this misinformation.

Hormone blockers are dangerous in that some kids have ended up with a micro penis too small to be changed into a vagina

12 is too young to use hormone blockers.

Thank you for your thoughts and help. I have looked at quite a lot of the information you provided above. The GiRES quote was in a talk by Stephanie Davies Arai - I saw it on You Tube, sorry can't remember where I got the link.
I am aware of the link to autism, in fact the autism diagnosis came partly as a result of the gender difficulties.

I don't think we should stop talking about this and for what it's worth, I don't see anyone with "vile" comments.

If you don't like the thread title, don't click in the same way that I avoid parking threads or warring neighbours threads.

Whilst I don't claim to know a huge amount, I know enough to see that the organisations we usually depend upon to remain neutral and non-discriminatory (our schools, social services, our health service, our government etc) are actually so terrified of being outed as phobic, that they're allowing a small minority of activists to dictate their agendas. The changes being made underneath our noses are going to effect all of us - I know I'm derailing a bit here - but I don't know why posters on MN aren't more alarmed.

I'm sorry that this bores some people, but in time to come, when you insist that your frail and elderly Mum or your poorly teenage daughter shouldn't be on the same ward as a fully functioning male, or when your husbands take your young daughter out and send her into the ladies loo/changing rooms thinking that she is safe amongst other women only to see a lone male wandering in, the law will not be on your side.

I'm a teacher and I'm seeing more and more pupils, teenage pupils, who are annoying and delightful and frustrating and sulky and fantastic and questioning and discovering and moody and bloody normal, being persuaded by social media that they are trans, and then school employees acting upon this message and confirming that they are right, and processes being set in motion that potentially has nothing to do with your rights as a parent. It's frightening.

I know of teachers who are facing disciplinary action for daring to tell these pupils to slow down and to not make life-long decisions at such a vulnerable age.

I'm 45 with agonising periods and have begged my GP for a hysterectomy for the last 3 years, only to be refused every time. Because apparently, even after 3 children, I may regret it.

If we don't talk about it, if we become annoyed (and sometimes abusive) when others try and discuss it, then we are literally sitting ducks. Everything that feminists have achieved for us - the Suffragette movement and our right to vote, women who fought for the right for 'battered wives' to have Refuges and places of safety, women who fought for the right for us to be able to go to university (only since 1940), women who affected change and made rape within marriage a criminal offence (only since the early 90's), women who constantly fight for equal pay and against discrimination in the workplace - all that work and dedication will have been for nothing.

This issue is huge and yet there are those among you who would rather criticise those who are trying to avoid our society from sleepwalking into a nightmare.

Well said Welshmoh, couldn't agree more

WelshMoth

Excellent post. And yes, the fact you have firsthand experience of this contagion, lends your post credibility.

Not that it needs credibility, but it’s useful to hear from people who are at the coalface, as it were.

There is absolutely no doubt that people are worried to speak out. Doctors, teachers, professionals in every walk of life.

Even if you are on board with the trans-ideology, the very fact that you can’t question it should be making alarm bells ring.

Leaflets, which looks to me like nothing more than propaganda, should not be sent into schools.

Why are we not doing the same with every other mental health issue?

Are we having lessons and leaflets about schizophrenia, bipolar, self harming, narcissism?

Do the leaflets about the trans-ideology tell young women that it’s now transphobic to be gay? That if they don’t consider penises in their sexual repertoire, they’re bigots?

The whole circular process is very manipulative. Children are encouraged to transition online, to be their authentic self, it’s the only way to make them happy.

Then, in the next breath, they are told the trans people suffer horrendous discrimination and abuse, and it’s no wonder they feel isolated once they’ve transitioned.

You point this out and you are told that they have to transition, it’s the only way. It’s cruel not to.

You’re told that there are hundreds of trans-people who are perfectly happy after transition. And in the same breath that trans-people are
oppressed and abused wherever they go.

That if they don’t transition, they will kill themselves. That it’s no wonder they kill themselves after transition because people are so intolerant.

Statistically, 87% of people who transition have comorbid mental health issues. All of which are ignored. Any problems that the person might have is laid firmly at the door of being trans, rather than trans being a symptom.

Then, the goalposts quickly switch, and it’s suddenly about human rights.

Robert Winston, is dealing very firmly with the medical side of things. But as soon as he mentions it, the human rights issue comes in to bash him.

Anyone who has been in an abusive relationship will recognise these strategies.

Well said Datun. I've just been told my local NHS's criteria for MH treatment eligibility explicitly excluded abuse survivors. If you were abused as a child you are automatically ineligible for any form of NHS treatment or therapy, and are diverted into an educational programme or advised to see private or student counselling. Even for patients who have attempted suicide. They will fund this, but not MH treatment??

I have to correct whoever said transvestitism is a sexual fetish. For some people it is a sexual fetish, for many women who dress in male clothing/vice versa it is not at all. Posts like this are dangerous since they muddy the water and give ammunition to those who call TERFS bigoted.