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Trans guidelines for schools in Scotland

(190 Posts)
LemonJello Wed 08-Nov-17 14:14:50

New guidelines:

Sorry I’m not sure how to do a clicky link.

I haven’t read through it properly yet but will do now. Just posting as I’m sure others will be interested.

pisacake Wed 08-Nov-17 14:20:29


LemonJello Wed 08-Nov-17 14:26:17

Thank you Pisa. My blood pressure is through the roof and I’m only on page 17.

MorrisZapp Wed 08-Nov-17 14:34:00

I can't bear it. Parents who don't want their kids sharing private spaces with the opposite sex should be reminded of respect and inclusion. Pupils who don't feel safe with trans persons present can use the facilities later. The trans person goes first. If the pupil feels unsafe because of the presence of the trans person they must have their misconceptions dispelled.

Fuck. This.

pisacake Wed 08-Nov-17 14:45:49

contains the 'assigned male at birth' nonsense.

I LOLed at this

"Staff and learners should avoid 'deadnaming'. This is when someone intentionally calls a transgender young person by their previous name. Depending on the situation, it could be distressing for the young person, or be viewed as bullying.
This is not the same as accidently calling a person by their previous name. If someone does this, they should say 'sorry' and try not to do it again"

It states

" Discrimination case law has established that transgender people who have started living in accordance with their gender identity must not be banned from using the facilities matching their gender identity."

However no reference is provided. Is this true? Is there case law?

Surely legal references should be provided, given that schools may be sued (by either group).

It suggests that a girl who doesn't want a penis in her face should have to wait till the penis-owned has finished changing. Like that will work really well. Oh you've missed your bus home now. Stupid fuckers.

"A transgender young person should not be forced to use alternative
facilities simply to make other young people feel more comfortable"

This made me LOL also

"Encouraging gender neutral language when calling dances. For example, rather than say 'Gentlemen, spin your ladies for a count of eight' say, 'Those on the outside, spin your partners for a count of 8'

"If school sports competitions or classes are organised by gender, a transgender young person should be allowed to compete in the category which matches their gender identity"

"For inter-school competitions not governed by national sports bodies, the same standards should apply. It may be helpful to a young person if you speak to the equivalent staff in the other school(s) to let them know there is a trans learner in your team/competition, but only with the young person's consent"

It will be like Iran with their women's football team consisting entirely of trans-identifying males

"A trans boy or non-binary young person who has developed unwanted breasts might bind their chest to flatten it, so they might need to wear a loose-fitting shirt or sweatshirt. Binders can
lead to shortness of breath and can be painful during physical exertion.
Binders can, however, have a positive impact on a young person's mental health so staff should allow a young person to decide for themselves about whether or not to wear a binder, and help
them join in."

Ah yes, unwanted breasts. Damn those pesky things. Let's encourage young people to flatten them so hard they can't breathe. Great plan.

"If a transgender young person wants to share a room with other young people who share their gender identity, they should be able to do so
If a transgender young person is sharing a room with their peers, there is no reason for parents or carers of the other young people to be informed "

"“Definitely there needs to be more transgender inclusion in education – we didn't even get a single mention of being trans at my school; like classes about it, even posters in the hallway.”
– Trans young person"

Yeah put up fucking posters, awesome idea. "Could YOU be trans? "

"As long as they are suitable role models for young people, highlighting transgender 'celebrities' and academics can be a powerful affirmation for transgender young people. "

Yeah that's going to work REALLY well.

"Jack Monroe – journalist and non-binary trans person"

who says she's a woman

"Trans boys/men
People assigned 'female' at birth but who identify as boys/men. "

Why does female need scare quotes?

"A trans boy is likely to be distressed about being seen as female and/or having a female body. They are likely to assert a male gender identity consistently and persistently. The prospect of going through female puberty, especially breast-growth and menstruation, is often traumatic. "

"Some non-binary people may strongly reject all aspects of being a boy or a girl"

Yes I reject all aspects, I'm so special. What the fuck does that mean?

"Although the term 'gender reassignment' is used in the legislation, a young person does not need to have undergone any changes or have any medical treatment or assessment for the Act to apply. If a young person discusses with someone that they are exploring their gender identity or considering using different pronouns in the future, they are legally protected"

dinahmorris Wed 08-Nov-17 14:51:48

If a transgender young person is sharing a room with their peers, there is no reason for parents or carers of the other young people to be informed

This is appalling. Parents should absolutely know if their child is sharing a hotel / hostel room with a person of the opposite (biological) sex. Quite frankly, I would refuse to run any school trip where this wasn't the case.

pisacake Wed 08-Nov-17 14:54:11

yes it makes it very clear doesn't it.

1. Boy says he MIGHT be a girl - legally protected as transgender.
2. Boy says he would 'more comfortable' on the school trip sleeping with the girls - that's his right

And if the girls don't like it, why they don't need to participate do they.

MorrisZapp Wed 08-Nov-17 14:54:24

When I was at school I wanted to be called Matilda. Oh what japes I could have had if the entire staff were legally obliged not to 'deadname' me smile

pisacake Wed 08-Nov-17 14:57:14

reminds me of the psycho prisoner who was humoured by being referred to as 'Mr. Almighty'. That was before he learned you can can get a better kick by pretending to be a woman and being searched by female guards.

But no, no-one ever takes the piss, these guidelines are only about supporting vulnerable people and there are no possible drawbacks whatsoever.

pisacake Wed 08-Nov-17 14:58:35

Sorry, I mean 'Mr Mighty Almighty'.

Just following guidance:

> This is not the same as accidently calling a person by their previous name. If someone does this, they should say 'sorry' and try not to do it again

I will try not to do it again, please accept my apologies Mr Mighty Almighty, sorry I mean Tiffany Scott.

dinahmorris Wed 08-Nov-17 14:59:16

My point, pisa is that I can't think of a single teacher who would run a school trip where this would happen. So the most likely outcome is that where it becomes an issue the school trips simply stop happening. It is a shame, but the realistic thing is - no way would I run a trip where there was a risk of teenagers in my care having sex. We keep to separate rooms, preferably in separate corridors, with teachers "on duty" at night if necessary. The last thing anyone needs is a teenager who got pregnant on a school trip!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 08-Nov-17 15:02:51

In a primary school I would hope that no-one would pretend to be trans to perv on the opposite sex.

I am more concerned about how confusing and damaging this will be for young children. I live in fear of the day someone suggests that DAD is trans because she has a shirt haircut and sometimes wears trousers to school.

What impact does it have on a class if someone is suddenly treated as the opposite nsex?

varvara Wed 08-Nov-17 15:04:18

Argh, I’m in Scotland 🙁 This is insane - and nobody in the Scottish Govt will challenge it. At least in Westminster there are one or two people with some sort of critical faculty. The Scottish Govt are desperate to prove that they at more “progressive” than the rest of the UK - although what is so “progressive” about encouraging young people to hate their perfectly bodies is beyond me.

The bit about how not going to the toilet can damage your health - but a breast binder is OK! 😮

Knusper Wed 08-Nov-17 15:09:03

Teenagers with opposite-sex genitals (AKA male and female) sharing a bedroom without their parents' knowledge or permission. No gatekeeping of access to the girls' rooms and changing areas. What could possibly go wrong?

If I lived in Scotland and my DC attended a mixed school this might push me to home educate, TBH. The idea that my DC might sleep in a mixed environment without my knowledge or consent is totally unacceptable. I wouldn't allow e.g. a 13 year old DD to take part in a mixed sleepover and, given the lack of gatekeeping, this is potentially no different.

I know that teenagers take part in mixed overnight activities (scouts, D of E) but parents are informed and able to make choices for their kids as they see fit.

AssignedPerfectAtBirth Wed 08-Nov-17 16:05:46

Still loading for me, think my pc is fried.

Has the Scottish Government endorsed it?

pisacake Wed 08-Nov-17 16:07:10

yes it says on the first page

AssignedPerfectAtBirth Wed 08-Nov-17 16:30:47

I can't load it, which is frustrating. I may blow a gasket. I'm in Scotland, with school aged children. Going to circulate this to all the mothers I know.

Lancelottie Wed 08-Nov-17 16:33:35

This is starting to remind me of the Trolley Bus dilemma - you know, where taking an action saves some people while literally throwing others under the bus?

The difference is that in the original problem, the question is whether it's ethical to pull a lever and save five people while killing the one who would originally have escaped.

Here, it's more like endangering the many to save the one.

Mrskeats Wed 08-Nov-17 16:42:39

So basically boys will be in girls changing rooms and vice versa. What could possibly go wrong? Law suits a plenty.

BatShite Wed 08-Nov-17 17:09:19

I am actually thinking I may need to home educate DD just to keep her safe, if things continue down this route. A parent does not need to be informed if opposite sexes are sharing previously sex segregated areas indeed.

I have actually specifically asked DDs school reception to let me know if they have any trans talks on. Shes only 5, and it will confuse the hell out of her and I don't want her to be 'recruited' just because she tends to favour 'boys toys' and such. I genuinely believe treating kids in that way is abuse, in plain view of professionals who should know better, and with state support also. Mass child abuse.

notafish Wed 08-Nov-17 17:34:45

Here are my observations. Sorry if they load up in a mess. I wish it were easier to quote from external sources on Mumsnet.

Firstly - I dislike the use of the terms Youth and Young people. It seems deliberate to distract from the fact that school pupils are still children.

This part about the law is disingenuous, unless things are different in Scotland. I hope schools have better knowledge of the current Equality Act and what it says about exemptions being allowed. "110.The Equality Act 2010 allows for the provision of separate-sex113 and single-sex services114 where this is “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”.

The Supporting Transgender Youth guidance says:
"What the law says There is no law in Scotland, or in the UK, which states that only people assigned male at birth can use men's toilets and changing rooms, or that only people assigned female can use women's toilets and changing rooms. Discrimination case law has established that transgender people who have started living in accordance with their gender identity must not be banned from using the facilities matching their gender identity."

Really? Have any of these case laws been against schools?

Is it not a legitimate aim to allow privacy and dignity to all the other children, a large proportion of which are likely experiencing their own feelings of self-consciousness over their changing bodies? My children's' primary school stopped boys and girls changing together for PE when they were in Year 5 (age 9). What is the point of that if it can suddenly be deemed unimportant at some later date and overridden by another's conflicting wants. Either it is or it isn't important for children to have sex segregated spaces when their bodies are developing. It can't be both. My DDs have to do mixed sex swimming in Years 7 - 9 and the majority of the pupils hate it, girls and boys, doing what they can to get out of it. That's how much they do not wish to be undressed in front of the opposite sex.

I note the guidance says:

"As a guide, it is helpful to ask: Is the young person being treated with dignity and respect? Have you taken all reasonable steps to accommodate their needs? "

Will they not ask these questions of all the other pupils?

Ah and then there's the twisting of statistics again to scare parents or teachers. In the infographic about having supportive or supportive parents they cite this:

Based on a 2012 study of 433 individuals. Travers R, Bauer G, Pyne J, Bradley K, for the T rans PULSE Project: Gale L, Papadimitriou M (2012). Impacts of Strong Parental Support for Trans Youth: a report prepared for Children’s Aid Society of Toronto and Delisle Youth Services.

Here's the report pdf

*"Survey data were collected from a total of 433 trans participants (youth and non-youth) by internet or paper survey." "Participants were recruited through respondent-driven sampling (RDS) over a 12-month period in 2009-2010, including 123 trans youth, 84 of whom had socially transitioned gender (or begun to), come out to their parents, and provided information reporting how supportive their parents were of their gender identity or expression. *This analysis is based on data from these 84 youth."

So not 433 individuals who are trans youths then.

"*Transgender professionals who could be referred to in lessons include:*

*J uno D awson – author (young people's fiction and non-fiction) and trans woman*"

Who, in the Guardian in the summer in a piece about summer likes and dislikes, answered the question: What’s your summer soundtrack? with
"It’s a bit cliched, but Lana Del Rey. It’s all languid California suncream and cherry cola. You can roll around in the garden pretending to be Lolita, or Cecile from Bonjour Tristesse." Ugh - a YA author who does school visits. Worrying.

I'm happy with my children learning about gender dysphoria, I'm glad for teachers to be provided with guidance, I don't wish for any young person to suffer any hatred or bullying or nonacceptance for how they express themselves but this guidance is one-sided, shits all over girls especially and is overkill. Do schools get issued with guidance for dealing with children with other issues which are 60 pages long? A quick google for Autism and the guidance I found for for secondary schools is only 20 pages long. Where are all the school-wide pro campaigns to support girls with ASD or ADHD, children with social anxiety, children who experience bereavement etc...?

notafish Wed 08-Nov-17 17:43:36

Plus it's really unfair to put schools in this position regarding toilets, changing rooms and residential school trips. They'll be damned if they do and damned if they don't.

notafish Wed 08-Nov-17 17:44:11

And competetive sports.

jellyfrizz Wed 08-Nov-17 17:50:47

What impact does it have on a class if someone is suddenly treated as the opposite nsex?

Well, hopefully none other than the toilets. Girls and boys should be treated exactly the same.

QueenLaBeefah Wed 08-Nov-17 17:52:17

I absolutely new that Scotland would go down this route as Holyrood loves to view itself as progressive.

As an aside my children's high school is missing 3 maths teachers and the entire education system is going down the pan in Scotland. Still, At least I know where their priorities lie - letting boys and girls share overnight accommodation without parents being informed. What could possibly go wrong?

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