Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think the NHS should not be recommending hysterectomy to young girls

272 replies

pisacake · 06/11/2017 13:50

NHS handout for 'young trans people in the UK'

www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/assets/media/17-15-02-A-Guide-For-Young-People.pdf

'Surgical Options'

"Hysterectomy
This surgery involves the removal of the interior female sexual organs. This prevents the risk of cancer and forever prevents periods or risk of pregnancy"

Sounds awesome doesn't it!

Here's the NHS advice on taking drugs

"Hormone Blockers
If blockers (or anti-androgens) are taken when younger, the effects from puberty are likely not to occur and a more passable body is likely to result."

Yes, that's right kids you can just skip puberty, and be Peter Pan. It's a brave new world where you are stuck with a micropenis for the rest of your life.

And what if your stupid parents don't agree?

"If you are under 16 a lot will depend on gaining the full support from your parents. In other countries hormone blockers can be given to younger transsexual people which will prevent the onset of unwanted secondary sex characteristics. This may mean that you look further than the UK for medical intervention. It would be undesirable to buy hormones over the internet without fully knowing what you are buying."

That's right kids! You can suppress those pesky unwanted secondary sex characteristics' by buying hormones on teh internetz. Yay NHS! Yay Aneurin Bevan!

And boys, thinking of becoming girls, it's NOTHING to worry about, you can chop off your balls and turn your dick inside out, it's perfectly normal! It will even improve your health, everything is awesome!

""Orchidectomy is the removal of the testes. This operation means that testosterone will no longer be naturally produced in the body and therefore you can do without your testosterone blocker. In general, the lower the dose of any drug the lower the health risks you will have. "

"Technology for SRS is quite advanced and with good surgery even gynaecologists are said to find it hard to distinguish a constructed vagina from a natal one. "

A constructed vagina huh? You mean like a sex toy? www.lovehoney.co.uk/sex-toys/male-sex-toys/pocket-vaginas/ I hear they are pretty realistic too.

This is NHS advice, albeit I don't think any doctor actually reviews this stuff before they print it, there seems to be an attitude that it would be transphobic to have any of this written by mainstream medics, so let's just let a self-selecting group of people with loud voices do it. (Like the group Mermaids, who are recommended in the handout, and who basically consist of one woman who took her son to Thailand at 16 to have 'bottom surgery'.)

And don't think all these pamphlets and websites telling you that hysterectomy and puberty blocking are awesome have no effect on kids. Nope, there is a MASSIVE increase in kids identifying as trans.

Here's an article today from St Albans www.hertsad.co.uk/news/increase-in-trans-support-is-offered-as-child-gender-fluidity-rises-in-st-albans-district-1-5264057

Lots and lots of girls deciding they are boys because "He wouldn’t wear knickers and refused to play with girls’ toys" and the NHS happily supporting that. (That biologically female child is seven-years-old, and per the NHS handout above you will get GREAT results, by taking puberty blockers follow by testosterone, which "offers very effective masculinisation for FTMs". Apparently said child is "adamant he will grow up and get married and be the husband and daddy and he will have a wife". )

There is obviously no meaningful consent possible by pre-pubescent child to puberty blocking, because they have no real conception of what puberty hormones would do to their body AND brain. But apparently there is no concern whatsoever about this, because EVERYTHING IS AWESOME when you're trans. So much better than being a boring old 'cis' female with periods and cancer and pregnancy and all those silly 'ciswoman' problems.

OP posts:
Sentimentallentil · 08/11/2017 23:32

Am I the only one that finds them saying that there’s no difference between a surgical vagina and a real one SO FUCKING RUDE????

My vagina is far more than a place for sex. It’s my vagina and society has made me feel so ashamed of it, worried that it smells, is too big, not attractive enough, too floppy, too fishy, the wrong colour, hairy, gaping, fat, sweaty, frigid and wrong.
It’s taken me years and years to accept and eventually come to love my genitals and most women I know are the same.
I work with Pre and postnatal women and most women don’t even know what theirs looks like, and are deeply uncomfortable talking about them. The number of women I know who put up with birth trauma and pelvic floor dysfunction down to sheer embarrassment of describing what is wrong is staggering, and these are educated, clever women.
It’s almost like women don’t believe they deserve to feel good about their genitals.

And then we’re told that our genitals are the same as ones that are made surgically, that gynaecologists can’t even tell the difference?
Fuck that.

Can you imagine if they said that about trans men’s penises???
Well they just wouldn’t.

Pandapenguin · 09/11/2017 00:49

So would a gynaecologist not notice the absence of things like bartholin's glands, hymenal tags, cervix, frenulum? Can they make clitorises with them looking naturally attached?

I don't care how good it looks from the outside - might even have a 'designer vagina' fashion about it but a gynaecologist would know. So that's bullshit whoever said that.

BatShite · 09/11/2017 09:20

Maybe a gynaecologist would not be able to tell from 50m away is what they meant.

NettleTea · 09/11/2017 09:50

surely the absence of cervix would be quite a giveaway
Plus they dont tell these kids that they will need to dilate each day, and flush out. The self care needed takes a huge amount of time. If they are anything like my kid, who is required to do medication and therapy daily for a life limiting disease, and she cant even be arsed to do that most of the time, they are setting themselves up for alot of medical problems

NettleTea · 09/11/2017 09:59

If the transgender narrative tells us it is about gender, not sex, and that sex and genitals are irrelevant, then why are they suggesting kids change their sex? Because thats what hormones and surgery is attempting to do. Why cant they just change their 'gender' the same as the adults seem to be doing, because I dont see too many older men rushing out to get their genitals chopped off. This is the sinister bit to me - why when around 80-90% of the MTF older population out there are hanging onto their penises, are they pushing ever earlier access to irreversible drugs and surgery for kids and teens

Datun · 09/11/2017 10:51

This is the sinister bit to me - why when around 80-90% of the MTF older population out there are hanging onto their penises, are they pushing ever earlier access to irreversible drugs and surgery for kids and teens

Recruitment and grooming.

OlennasWimple · 09/11/2017 13:10

A practice nurse can tell from the scar tissue that I had a minor procedure on my cervix 20 years ago. I'm certain a gynaecologist would be able to tell that they were looking at a neo-vagina constructed from skin that formerly housed a pair of testes.

Though would a gynaecologist be the right person to deal with problems with a neo-vagina? That's not what they have been trained to treat. Genuine question.

And yes, Sentimental - it's bloody rude to those of us who have a real vagina Angry

birdbandit · 09/11/2017 22:01

Older late transitioning MTF don’t have their penis altered, because IME, it makes masterbating to the idea of themselves as a woman, a wee bit difficult.

However, getting kids to do it, that just validated their narrative. They don’t give a rats about the implications for the child, because everything about the AGP experience is all about them and their needs.

To be fair, there are some (perhaps more self aware) voices in the crossdressing community who are horrified by what’s being done. But imagine how difficult it would be for them to put their heads over the parapet. for goodness sake these crossdressing men are being argued against by the TRAs, who think they understand their minds better than the practitioners themselves.

Betty184 · 11/11/2017 00:43

An excellent, if thoroughly depressing, article in today's Times:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meet-alex-bertie-the-transgender-poster-boy-z88hgh8b8

Meet Alex Bertie, the transgender poster boy

More girls are changing their gender from female to male than ever before. And it’s YouTube star Alex Bertie’s example that they’re following. What’s behind the surge in numbers? Janice Turner investigates

The little girl who was once Alex Bertie liked action figures, toy cars and Lego. Above all she loved video games: her favourite times were sitting beside her father, Paul, a postman, while he played Nintendo and Dreamcast. Consequently at primary school her friends were all boys. “The guys were like, ‘I can’t believe I’ve found a girl who likes video games.’ And to them that’s like gold, isn’t it?”

Little Alex “generally steered clear of anything pink, frilly or sparkly”, but her parents didn’t care that their daughter preferred jeans and shirts. Nor did her many friends, who all lived close by in a modern estate in rural Alderholt, Dorset. And for the happy first 11 years of life, Alex never thought about gender.

At 13, there was the hated school prom: Alex didn’t want to wear a dress, but for once her mother, Michelle, insisted, and so Alex bought the dullest black gown imaginable but wiped the make-up off her face: it felt wrong.

That term, just before summer break, Alex realised she was attracted to her female best friend: “And I ended up, stupidly, telling people at school that we were in a relationship. I didn’t think I was a lesbian or anything like that. I just thought, ‘This is somebody that I’m really into. Why can’t we be together if we have a connection in a similar way that I would if I found a boy that I liked?’ ”

In September, starting at a huge new secondary school, Alex and her girlfriend found themselves surrounded by a jeering gang. News had spread. Alex felt panicked, anxious. She hadn’t even told her parents. “I was known as the ‘weird lesbian girl’ and nobody would speak to me, and suddenly it was just really hard, because I’d never found it difficult to make friends really.” She’d go over to her old mates, the video-game boys, but they’d walk away. “My sexuality tainted their perception of me entirely.” Among the post-pubescent “masculine” boys and “feminine” girls she was an oddity: a masculine girl. “I was the misshapen cookie, the one made at the end with the leftover dough that gets burnt and no one wants to eat.”

Lonely, dumped by her girlfriend, Alex was catcalled and harassed relentlessly by a gang of boys: “I was a bully’s dream: weedy, geeky and gay.” For three years, she endured shouts of “lezzer” or “you’re a boy” without reporting it, growing ever more troubled. She self-harmed by cutting her legs where her mother wouldn’t notice. She hated her now developing body, although cropping her long hair into a cool boyish cut felt great.

At this time, Alex assuaged loneliness by setting up a YouTube channel, making little videos in her bedroom about her sexuality in which she vented her misery but also created a perky online persona who quickly won followers. Then, around 15, Alex told a teacher about the bullying, self-harm and gender dysphoria – a discomfort with your body’s sex. A school counsellor made an appointment with an LGBT group, Over the Rainbow, which gave Alex a folder about transgender issues, including pictures of trans celebrities and how to begin the NHS pathway to transition. It was a lightbulb moment.

“At 15, I fully understood I’m supposed to be male,” Alex says. On YouTube he discovered many other female-to-male video bloggers, changed his girl birth name to Alex and started to strap down his breasts with too-tight swimsuits, before ordering a special breast binder online. “Suddenly,” he says, “my teachers looked out for me in class.”

At 16, he moved to sixth-form college where no one knew him, assuming his new male identity. As a man, his confidence soared. He learnt to act like a boy, to manspread and banter: “At first I was like the bro-iest bro.” On his YouTube channel he declared his intent to medically transition, and what he calls his “quest to a beard” began.

Now I sit with Alex, 21, in that same lime-green bedroom seen by his now 300,000 YouTube followers. In a tank is his snake, Tim. After 18 months on testosterone, injected into his buttock every three months, Alex’s voice is low; he has a passable beard and has filled out a little, but is still a birdlike 5ft 4in and his hair is receding. His periods have stopped and he is now probably infertile. “I’ll adopt,” he says cheerfully.

“I had so much dysphoria and distaste towards my body. And I knew in my heart and soul that I was not supposed to be a woman. It’s difficult for a cisgender person [someone who identifies as the sex they were born with] to understand. Now I have down days, but that’s not for gender reasons any more.”

Alex is a delightful person: by turns kids’-TV-presenter enthusiastic, then suddenly profoundly vulnerable. He recently had a very painful NHS operation to remove both breasts; it took weeks to recover. His book, Trans Mission: My Quest to a Beard, details his journey, as did his frequent videos, through GPs appointments and gender services. He works as a graphic designer for a local private school and is dating another young trans-man called Jake, whom he met in a support group: they transitioned together.

And now Alex Bertie is a trans poster boy. His book is a how-to manual for confused girls with an appendix on how to make your own breast binder. Why does he think so many girls now transition? “It’s a lot more public than it used to be. People can see it as an option. Like, ‘Oh, I can actually alleviate this pain I feel towards my body.’ ”

These girls write to him with questions and he replies honestly online; thinks it’s important not to hide the gravity of transition. “How do you cope with gender dysphoria in the bath?” one asks. “Bubbles,” he replies, “lots of bubbles.” Alex’s body hatred endures to some degree, but in his book he says he won’t yet have what is known as “bottom surgery”, using his female genital tissue to create a penis and testicles, one of which acts as a pump to simulate an erection. Both of the two current methods risk infection and loss of orgasm.

He’ll wait until genital surgery has advanced. But, I say, they’ll never create a functioning penis that can ejaculate. “Never say never!” says Alex brightly. Meanwhile he “packs” his boxers with a prosthetic device that allows him – once he’d got the hang of it – to pee standing up. He feels he is now “my authentic self”.

Downstairs I speak with Michelle, who is the deputy manager of a care home. She weeps as she speaks of Alex’s double mastectomy. “Seeing him go through that … But he had such a pure hatred of his body. He said, ‘It’s your fault for giving birth to a girl.’ ” She never really tried to challenge his transition. By the time she even knew, he was being cheered on by thousands of online fans.

As a small girl, Jessie hated dresses and skirts, wearing jeans and T-shirts, and was often mistaken for a boy. Her quirky, nonconformist parents, in south London, encouraged her to play with trucks as well as dolls.

Around 13, Jessie realised she was attracted to girls and came out to friends as bisexual and then gay. Her favourite bands were All Time Low and Twenty One Pilots, all-male groups whose members were young, cute and fun. She didn’t fancy them; she wanted to be them. These boys had exciting lives, girlfriends, cool haircuts and wore clothes she liked to wear.

Online, Jessie could find no one like her. YouTubers Rose & Rosie were gay but too “girlie”. And she discovered that her favourite bands had a huge Instagram following of girls just like her: young, “butch”, high-achieving and gay. Her fellow fans became online and then real-life friends.

They’d hold meet-ups in Hyde Park. “No one uses the word ‘lesbian’ any more,” she says. “It’s so uncool. It has really negative connotations.” Rather, these short-haired androgynous girls, many of whom had previously self-harmed, started to identify as boys. Some went by male names only online, others just among close friends. A few were “socially transitioned”: out as male to family and school. “It’s weird,” says Jessie. “It’s as if a switch is flicked and suddenly you feel different. I felt I will no longer be that weird girl who dresses like a boy. I will be a boy.”

Jessie had felt uneasy about puberty, but now “it felt 100 times worse. ‘I’m not a girl: why do I have to go through this?’ ” To her 5,000 Instagram followers she became “Jake”. “And if you are on your phone as much as me, that means I was Jake most of the time.” She planned to become Jake permanently when she started sixth-form college, taking testosterone at 16, growing a beard … She followed Alex Bertie’s transition avidly online and was excited to meet him at a YouTube event.

Then she told her parents. They’d been warm and accepting (and unsurprised) when she came out as gay. But they were appalled when Jessie said she was “in the wrong body”. Her mother, Lily, refused to let her attend a gender clinic. Instead, she challenged her thinking: why did having short hair, loving other girls and preferring the menswear department make her a boy? Why must she change her body to match her personality? The rows were epic. “I was forever texting that my parents were awful, that they wouldn’t let me be my authentic self.”

Jessie’s friends had started to bind their breasts: some strapped so tight, they threw up. She tried, but it made her out of breath. Then her mum found her binder and threw it away.

Over a turbulent 18 months, the feeling she was a boy gradually faded. Why? She got a girlfriend and saw her transitioning friends were still deeply troubled. “But the biggest factor was that I moved from music stuff to TV fandom.” She watched Supergirl, which has two lesbian characters, Maggie and Alex, a secret agent and a cop; and Wynonna Earp, with action lesbians Waverly and Nicole who fight demons. “It sounds mad, but they changed my life: finally I saw girls I wanted to be.”

Now Jessie is 17, starting A levels, a happy, sociable, “out” lesbian. “I don’t see why there should be a male box and a female box. Just people who happen to have a penis or a vagina.”

What would have happened if her mother had taken her to a gender clinic? “I would have been Jake now. No question. But I wouldn’t have been happier at all.”

Betty184 · 11/11/2017 00:44

Part 2:

Why do so many teenage girls now believe they are boys? Not just in Britain and the US, but across the western world, the number of female referrals to gender clinics has soared. A decade ago, girls were a fraction of patients at the Gender Identity Clinic in London, the UK’s main child gender service. But in 2011-12 girls surpassed boys, and now comprise 70 per cent of all cases: around 140 new girls every month. Typically they present at puberty, having hitherto never questioned their natal sex, and 90 per cent are gay: clinicians are calling it “rapid onset gender dysphoria”.

Disquiet among professionals has been growing, but until now few have spoken out, terrified of breaching a new orthodoxy that gender transition must always be “affirmed”, even celebrated, since it is the brave expression of the true self. Even if that person is a troubled 14-year-old girl.

James Caspian, a gender psychotherapist for 16 years, has helped many patients transition: he has no doubt that some people cannot live happy lives unless they do. But around seven years ago, his patient base began to change: his clients were younger and predominantly female. Most were lesbians and many had mental co-morbidities such as autism, depression or anxiety; others had suffered sexual abuse. All saw changing gender as a panacea. Yet Caspian believed this to be a fallacy: he discovered a growing US community of lesbian detransitioners (patients who change their mind). But when he tried to research this at Bath Spa University, his MA was blocked by the ethics committee as “politically incorrect”.

Since I interviewed Caspian, others have approached me: teachers noting a sudden clique of transitioning girls, parents whose girls abruptly identified as boys and several senior gender specialists. All wish to remain anonymous for fear they will be accused of transphobia, vilified, even sacked.

A woman I will call Dr K expresses years of frustration dealing with an unacknowledged epidemic of dysphoric teenage girls. “They are all the same, dozens and dozens of them. Short hair, boys’ clothes, probably liked rough and tumble play as small children. Now they like comic books or skateboarding or video gaming. Geeky, gauche, not many friends. They came out as lesbians, but then they went on Reddit and Tumblr and saw these transitioning videos. They decide they are trans. Suddenly they get lots of attention with everyone calling them by a new name, they get to chide anyone who uses the wrong pronoun while everyone tells them they are brave. They might get a special assembly at school.”

What we can’t underestimate, says Dr K, is the sheer homophobia outside middle-class liberal bubbles. “Lesbian” is at worst a grave insult, at best uncool. “The gay hierarchy is this,” she says. “At the top are gay men who can pass as straight, then camp gay men, then pretty, straight-passing lesbians. And right at the very bottom are butch lesbians. Masculine women have no cachet. But if you transition, you zoom right over the gay hierarchy to become a straight man. You can hold your girlfriend’s hand in public. As a butch woman you were unattractive, but lots of them become these cute little guys.”

Then, she says, there are the autistic girls, many undiagnosed. With a typically heightened sensory awareness, they find puberty particularly distressing, while a tendency to rigid categorical thinking means they see society’s pink and blue gender boxes and, if they like “male” clothes or pursuits, believe they must be physically reclassified.

Other girls who have been sexually abused simply wish to escape their vulnerable, desired female bodies. Dr K recalls one patient who came from a very troubled, violent family, where older female relatives were raped. “This girl was very tough, a real survivor. She’d gone through so much. And she said, ‘I can’t be female because girls are fragile and weak, and I don’t feel like that.’ ”

Trans ideology is celebrated as progressive yet, says Dr K, it is deeply conservative, erasing homosexuality and enforcing gender stereotypes. Which is why, says another child clinician, Dr B, it has taken such a hold. “Parents, particularly those without much education, see it as the obvious solution. If your child had diabetes, you’d get him prescribed insulin. If your gay daughter is masculine and feels she’s a boy, you take her to the doctor for hormones. This is the narrative of trans activists groups such as Mermaids and it makes sense to a lot of people. It is far harder to challenge stereotypes, to be ‘gender critical’.”

Moreover, a recently approved NHS “memorandum of understanding” states that questioning a patient’s declared gender or examining other underlying mental issues is equivalent to gay conversion therapy. A mother like Jessie’s, who refused to believe her 14-year-old was a boy, risks losing custody of her child. Already schools are pressed to endorse every child’s transition: a teacher in the West Midlands tells me of a very young girl who was allowed to take a male name and pronouns at school without therapeutic support or parental consent. “And you can’t even change a GCSE option without a parent’s signature.”

Trans groups seek an “affirmative” model, as practised in the US, where a doctor’s only role is to agree with a patient’s trans self-diagnosis and to begin treatment. Dr K says most girls now arrive utterly certain, fully briefed by Mermaids or trans websites, often infuriated they must have counselling. Gender clinicians, she says, can only challenge a child’s notions about being in the wrong body “by stealth”. But she risks professional disbarment, because she feels increasingly uneasy about putting girls on a pathway towards an untested treatment regime they may live to regret.

She is scathing, too, about puberty-blocking drugs such as Lupron – prescribed off-label, without any long-term studies upon the developing body and brain – which “pause” development, theoretically to give a child a year for reflection. In practice, almost 100 per cent of children on blockers proceed to cross-gender hormones. (This causes certain sterility: the gametes never mature enough for eggs or sperm to be banked.) “That year on blockers should be when we have deep, intensive regular therapy. We should ask, ‘What is a girl? What is a boy?’ Instead we barely see them, their peers go through puberty and leave them behind, which makes them even more anxious and desperate to transition.”

Both doctors agree with James Caspian, a Jungian, who calls this trend in girls “a collective complex”, a form of mass hysteria fed by online communities. Tumblr and Reddit brim with transition webpages, support groups of girls egging each other on, celebrating when they start “T” (testosterone). As an experiment, I took several “Am I trans?” questionnaires, giving the most ambivalent answers. The result is always “probably” or “yes”.

Peter lived as a woman until his late forties when, after extensive therapy, he became a trans man. “I just knew I had to do this to be happy. I was simply not a woman.” He now runs a trans support group and is aghast at an online culture pushing young lesbians into hasty transition. “I think some of them actually want to hold on to the transitional state. For a girl who was once marginalised, it has prestige. You post videos updating your progress. You get endless attention.” But actually living in your new gender can be a letdown. “They find their old problems have not gone away. And we pick up the pieces.” Peter knows trans boys who consulted private doctors to obtain hormones without prior counselling “and now they’ve had a breakdown and are asking Facebook friends to donate money for therapy they should have had first.”

Growing up in a small Scottish town, Gill was bullied to the point of mental breakdown when she came out as a lesbian teenager. A doctor gave her a diagnosis as trans within ten minutes, but her mother refused treatment. Later she moved to London and encountered the newly emerging “queer” culture, where being trans was far more fashionable and edgy than being a lesbian. She took testosterone for several years, growing permanent facial hair, before desisting. Now 35, she says, “What I needed growing up was older lesbians to reassure me I’m fine as I am. And that’s what I think these girls need now: to meet women like me. But the LGBT movement wouldn’t allow us: they’d see this as transphobic.”

The LGBT community will not countenance that a huge spike in transitioning girls is – like anorexia or self-harm – a social contagion, because this counters a central pillar of trans doctrine that gender is “innate”. The trans lobby is led mainly by older trans-women – born males – who were never teenage girls in the maelstrom of female adolescence. Their view is that girls who detransition weren’t trans to begin with. Although the question, as doctors are told to prescribe drugs unthinkingly, is how can you tell? I email Ruth Hunt, CEO of Stonewall, to ask if she believes many young lesbians are transitioning in response to homophobic bullying. Although a lesbian herself, she refuses to answer; she simply says how “at Stonewall we support every lesbian, gay, bi and trans young person to be themselves”.

But what is the true self of the teenage girl bombarded with pink and blue gender stereotypes on one hand and encouraging trans messages on the other? Especially since one in four girls, according to a recent government survey, has suffered depression. “We must separate gender dysphoria from trans,” says Dr B. In other words, hating your female body is common when society continually tells women they must look a certain way, but this does not mean a girl is in the “wrong body”.

Maybe, I say to Dr K, you are old-fashioned, wrong. Maybe it is fine for a legion of girls to take testosterone, to trade their capacity to orgasm or bear children for a better outward appearance in our highly visual age. Maybe lifelong hormone regimes, moulding the body via surgery, breast binders and stand-to-pee prosthetics are progress? “Yes,” she says. “And I hope I am wrong, for the sake of all these young people. But all my instincts as a clinician say not. I’m thinking of opening a practice in a new field: detransition. I foresee a gap in the market.”

pisacake · 11/11/2017 01:06

wow.

The trans lobby won't be happy with that.

Shame it's behind a paywall.

Here's Gill twitter.com/reckoner80

OP posts:
Ollivander84 · 11/11/2017 01:06

It bemuses me. I wasn't allowed my ears pierced until I was 16! So people who aren't old enough to vote, or drive or get marriedor have a tattoo or have sex can decide to transition Confused
Not old enough to have permanent ink on your skin but you could start thinking you want bits of your body removed
I look back at who I was at 14/15/16 and I was nothing like who I am now

pisacake · 11/11/2017 01:07

Another article in The Times.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/scout-chiefs-accused-over-transgender-self-harming-with-support-for-chest-binding-23f33sgjk

The Scouts supporting chest binding.

OP posts:
pisacake · 11/11/2017 01:08

it's mad. It's as if they got heroin addicts to write the nation's drug policy.

OP posts:
Ollivander84 · 11/11/2017 01:10

To add, I'll probably be accused of being phobic. My friend transitioned. I've only ever known him as a male and had no idea until he showed me his old female passport. I 100% believe that he was right, he knew from around 17 but didn't have surgery until a lot later. His mum supported him but refused to allow anything damaging to his body (binders etc) until he was able to make that decision himself and he had lived (dressing etc) as a man for several years
He's 35 now, has a girlfriend and is perfectly happy in his decisions

Beingrippedoff · 11/11/2017 01:22

Gosh it's so sad. These young girls are pushed into rejecting their own bodies and then destroy them in order to appease the men/boys around them

Betty184 · 11/11/2017 01:31

Here's Gill twitter.com/reckoner80

She's right in what she says in her tweet:

I can assure you what we're seeing is a new era of homophobia.

As a lesbian, it is so shocking to see that things are so clearly regressing. I grew up in the 80s/early 90s and remember, 10 years on, being envious of the lesbian/gay kids growing up in more enlightened times. Now things have regressed so much and I am so glad that I am not a teenager now - I would almost certainly be identifying as a trans man and be on a path of damaging drugs and surgery.

This part (among others!) really got to me:

“What I needed growing up was older lesbians to reassure me I’m fine as I am. And that’s what I think these girls need now: to meet women like me. But the LGBT movement wouldn’t allow us: they’d see this as transphobic.”

I'm just thinking 'what can I do?' Young lesbians are starting on this path from early teens and how can most of them have access to and support from older lesbians?

I do see older young people (ie 18+) about and some of them look like so many of the young lesbians I knew when I was that age - Either butch, androgynous - or just trying on that identity/look before settling on their own way of being a lesbian as they mature. But when you get closer and when you speak to them, they identify as trans men, have very rigid stereotyped views on men and women and are 'correcting' themselves to become straight men. Sad

Datun · 11/11/2017 08:37

A mother like Jessie’s, who refused to believe her 14-year-old was a boy, risks losing custody of her child. Already schools are pressed to endorse every child’s transition: a teacher in the West Midlands tells me of a very young girl who was allowed to take a male name and pronouns at school without therapeutic support or parental consent.

I can see any number of parents who, whilst they don’t understand gender, would be absolutely aghast at this ^^.

Thanks Betty184.

That’s fantastically well thought out piece. It takes you on a journey so rational, that by the end of the article you totally get it.

And I agree. I’m not a lesbian, but I feel like setting up a commune and inviting all these troubled young women to sit down, have a cup of tea and a chat.

Betty184 · 11/11/2017 11:18

I email Ruth Hunt, CEO of Stonewall, to ask if she believes many young lesbians are transitioning in response to homophobic bullying. Although a lesbian herself, she refuses to answer; she simply says how “at Stonewall we support every lesbian, gay, bi and trans young person to be themselves”.

The attitude of Stonewall sickens me. These are real life examples of young women who, in their own words, are describing horrific bullying for being a lesbian and how being a lesbian is seen as uncool/unacceptable to the extent that they no longer want to be a woman and feel they need to medically change their bodies to become accepted by society.

Stonewall should be tackling lesbophobia in schools (as in really tackling it, not just as a cursory L dotted on to 'anti-LGBT bullying' which actually focuses on their preferred groups) and should fight for appropriate counselling and support for young people which helps them to work through these issues. I used to support and donate to Stonewall but, like many LGBT organisations, it has become an organisation which only represents the interests of one group - and that certainly isn't vulnerable, young lesbians.

Pandapenguin · 11/11/2017 12:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Betty184 · 11/11/2017 12:59

Janice Turner, who wrote the article in The Times, has tweeted the following:

I approached Ruth repeatedly for an interview, even by phone. I emailed questions she wouldn’t answer. I offered her a platform. She declined. Her piece skirts a huge, central question: does homophobic bullying of young lesbians lead to transition?

If Stonewall think their approach is justified, why not answer questions and explain it? This article highlights massive issues facing young lesbians. These young women have bravely spoken out on their terrible experiences and Stonewall, which supposedly represents lesbians, won't even respond. If you are so confident you are doing the right thing, Ruth, why don't you respond? I think the lesbian community (and the parents who are watching their children go through this) deserve at least a proper response.

Pandapenguin · 11/11/2017 13:04

Same reason topshop won't answer women tweeting. Bs.

Datun · 11/11/2017 13:09

Stonewall is now so up shit creek. Without a paddle in sight.

You can’t support homosexuality and transgenderism at the same time. They are diametrically opposed.

Stonewall can never, ever explicitly comment without pissing off someone they say they support.

Homosexuals are the bigger cohort. But there aren’t many fights to be had on their behalf, these days.

Trans people are a smaller group, but there is lots of money in it and there are still rights to be —stolen— fought for.

I look forward to some hugely convoluted and linguistically irrational statement that tries to cover all the bases.

Pandapenguin · 11/11/2017 13:18

Who wants to bet that stonewall, in 5 to 10 years time if still around will have something on their website saying "we do not, at this point in time, provide support to adults who want answers about the drugs we encouraged to take them when they were children". Anyone?

BatShite · 11/11/2017 14:42

I feel so sorry for gay young people growing up today. It did seem things were getting better, much more accepting. And now, its all gone backwards in an instant.