To talk about the elephant in the room

[alittlebit]

Okay, so.
My friend is a lesbian and has a wife. She has been very broody the whole time I’ve know her but she and her wife chose to use their savings on their wedding and assumed they would still be able to afford to go down a complicated fertility plan. So they wanted the wife’s egg and a donor sperm and my friend to carry the baby, which obviously costs a lot more than just using a sperm donor.
Now they have realised they can’t afford to do this as it’ll take years of saving and my friend is 35 so the chances of it working decrease each year (so I’m told).
So they’re looking for a sperm donor and one of them drunkenly (and I’m hoping jokingly) asked DH for some of his. We laughed it off and didn’t mention this again.
Went out with friend a few months later and after a few drinks she keeps mentioning that we have the perfect family, we have everything ‘made’, that every time we have sex, we’re just ‘flushing away’ what she and her wife desperately need. She has asked if we are planning anymore children, wouldn’t DS like any sibling, if either of us have ever considered donating eggs/sperm, how long it took us to conceive, wouldn’t it be nicer if we were all closer etc. Just awkward.
I just change the subject.

Other than the one time (said drunkenly and I’m still hoping, jokingly), they have never seriously asked DH. So am I making wild assumptions here or does it sound like they’re building up to ask him to be their donor?
If so... what the hell do you say to that?

Write a letter:

"Dear Friend: I've been worried that when you'd had a couple of drinks the other month that you suggested/dropped hints that my husband and I might be willing to donate sperm in order to have a child. At the same time you talked about our "wasting my husband's sperm" every time we have sex when we don't intend to conceive - and I found that rude and disrespectful. It's not the kind of conversation I like to have - our sexual relationship is our business and not something we share with anyone. For the same reason I don't want to have another conversation with you about donating my husband's sperm, because there is no chance at all of it happening - my husband has made it clear that the only children he wants to father are with me, and I find the idea deeply unsettling.

I daresay this letter has been as difficult to read as it has been for me to write, but I need to make it clear that I won't discuss my sexual relationship with [husband's name] with you, any more than we would ever consider donating his sperm.

With, believe me, love as best wishes as ever to both of you."

Simple, direct, in-arguable: it may cost you the friendship, but everything you have said suggests that this would not be a great loss.

I wouldn't write a letter. As a general rule, those are quite horrible...a way of having your say without the recipient having any immediate right of reply. And if the friend in question has been carefully pitching it for plausible deniability, it could just make OP look and feel really awkward and stupid.

If you must talk about it, and I think you do, I think it's better to go face to face. Just be honest...something along the lines of 'Can we talk? I've had the impression lately, I may be wrong....'

People never seem to talk to each other about what's upsetting them. They'll drop hints, 'vent' online, bitch to mutual friends, maybe even write a letter, but they never seem to just get together with the person they're in conflict with and just TALK ABOUT IT.

If your friend is as need, unstable and manipulative as you described, she and her wife should not consider becoming parents. There is more to the emotional end of it than how the baby and child will make the parent feel.

WhyOhWine your friend who has tried to stop her child's biological father having contact with the child, much as I sympathize with her (the mum's situation) the man is the child's biological dad. Maybe he promised to donate and op out but when the baby was born he felt a need/desire to be involved.

There are cases of surrogate mums who said they would give up the baby when it was born but found it impossible. I've got sympathy for the surrogate mums in the situation; do by extension I have sympathy for the dad.

Be careful who you choose to have children with, is a wise motto.

I think some people could do with cutting them some slack really.There but for the grace of God go all of us... It can be heartbreaking to think you may never have children, of course they're going to want to hang on to any thread of hope they have. I .don't imagine they're meaning to make you feel awkward, just desperate to start a family, but next time they start up the conversation just say you think people who do that are amazing but it's not for you - with a smile - and move on. If they carry on the conversation offer to help in other ways if they want, reading up on sperm donors at an agency (is that a thing people do?) or if they choose to adopt, providing a reference for them for instance. They're probably 'asking' other people in this way too.

why can't you just be honest and say you don't feel comfortable with it? It's totally normal to feel that way and it won't be hard for them to find another donor. What's the big deal?

OP, please accept my apologies for my inaccurate post.

OP I totally agree with PoorYorick.

Can I add a change? I said before bring it up incidentally but I now feel that would be too obvious and direct is best.

Maybe, invite her out somewhere, go for a walk, whatever.

Maybe, say "I got the feeling your comments about my dh and his sperm being wasted might be more of a request than a joke, I could be wrong but I decided to talk to him about how he feels about sperm donation."

(I would not say you said it in relation to your friend.)

"DH said he won't donate sperm, not to strangers or friends, it's not something he is ever going to do." (Optional..." And I support him in that as I would feel very uncomfortable if he did.")

"I know you didn't exactly askr/us but I wanted to discuss it just on case you were wondering about it."

Personally, I would not go into reasons or engage. If she acts defensive "I never asked...."

Just be reassuring "I know, it's fine, you brought up the topic and I wanted to hear my dh's views."

Any guilt tripping just put on your sympathetic face. Maybe say "Fertility issues must be so hard. What is your plan?" Etc.

Don't engage in any what ifs relating to your dh - eg "Do you think if he knew it was for me? "Etc.

Polite, broken record.

I might end by saying "I can see this is so hard. I'm here is you need someone to talk to. But not about my dh. I feel that I want mine and eh's relationship to be private, and I totally respect if you and dw's relationship is private too. But I care for you as a dear friend (whatever is true) and just wanted to try and be a support."

Only say what you are happy to say, when that runs out, stay silent or repeat anything relevant at a suitable point.

Do not go 'off piste'!

Practise saying in the mirror the "I don't feel comfortable discussing that."

Don't add alcohol to the conversation if you can help it!

All the best.

I think they should be cut some slack too. Calling them Cheeky fuckers is a bit much. They've drunkenly introduced it into the conversation in a jokey way to test the waters and gauge your views. They possibly feel awkward discussing it?

It was a mistake to laugh it off and gloss over it when you feel so strongly but I'm sure they'll respect your view when you explain it.

Yep, Italian has found a much, much more diplomatic way of bringing it up.

Either way, if you think you need to talk about it, and it sounds as though you do, then....talk about it. I guess it's possible it could go pear shaped but if you're right in your inferences then it's probably only a matter of time anyway.

Their whole plan is ridiculous. Besides sperm, the whole concept of removing eggs from one partner to fertilise and implant into the other woman’s womb is such an unnecessary risk and beyond indulgent selfishness on the couple’s part. It means both would require a massive onslaught of hormones that bring a lot of added health risks. There are some really disturbing findings that women who got pregnant through fertility treatment have a higher risk of getting cancer. One thing to undergo this expensive, physically and emotionally challenging procedure due to infertility issues but beyond egocentric when there is no actual pressing physical need. I liked the suggestion of both women receiving sperm and letting nature take its course. However, on a practical level it might not be financially or otherwise possible for both partners to be pregnant around the same time. But in the greater scheme of trying to conceive and raise a child, the supposed gain of both feeling part of the pregnancy via this convoluted, costly and needless added risk seems very immature. OP’s sounds emotionally highly manipulative and rather unstable. Her obsession with your perfect family unit and your partner’s DNA comes across quite stalkerish. There seems to be a very unhealthy fixation on you. Given that she does not seem to like your DH, I wonder if she got strong feelings for you and wants to have this weird connection by having half siblings. I completely get your DH’s objections.

Temptress, I agree 100%.

I do not think these women have healthy boundaries.

Be very careful. A couple got a divorce and filed for child support from the "friend" who donated the sperm privately. She got child support.

Just say no. And that you don't approve of this borrowing sperm of friends, If they want to go down this path they must use donor sperm. I'd give them a wide berth for a while. They sound massively insensitive and a bit irresponsible and immature.

Three years ago I was seriously coveting my best ftiend's husband's sperm! I empathise with your friends - it's really hard to know children are unlikely just because you're not in a a sexual, straight relationship.
I am typing this lying beside my eight week old son, who I conceived with a gay man I met on a coparenting website. Baby lives with me 100% of the time and the dad and I are both delighted with the arrangement. We see him about once a week.
Maybe point your friends towards coparenting? Plenty of guys on the sites are happy to give monthly donations up to conception without an expectation of contact. Other guys want 50% of parenting, or more. There will be somebody on there that fits the bill, besides your poor husband!

I did ask my friends, btw! She was up for it, he wasn't. He told me it made him uncomfortable, declined in a sensitive and compassionate way, and that was that. We're all still really close.

Hi Op,
I really hope that this helps you and you will read this.
I am 32 and in a same sex relationship. We are both female and we have 4 year old son by way of donor.
IMO if this is something that is making you feel uncomfortable, then it needs to be stopped now.
When we first decided that we were in fact going to go for it and have a child, despite being fobbed off by adoption agencies because 'straight couples get the babies as they see it as a stable environment (Yes this did happen when calling two agencies by me and my partner), we had some wonderful friends and even family members offering to donate to us. This in simple form is very selfless, however there are many many factors that we just didn't feel were right.
Your husband is your husband, he is not a sperm donor for anyone but you ,unless you have both agreed and understood the consequences of what this would mean for your family. To me, any donation friends/family is way too close and it blurs lines.
I have heard of so many same sex couples using their male friends and bringing their children up to not know who their donated/biological dad is. It angers me because I have seen the men then get confused about what/if they play a role. I don't think that it's thought through properly because the act is just so easy to do!
Life is hard enough without knowingly fucking your kid up by withholding info or lying.
Our donor was a professional sperm donor, although we were fortunate enough to sign a contract outside of clinic to avoid cost.
Yes, this is so rare and we are very lucky to have had this happen to us, but we were aware of the costs and willing to pay it. It's all to easy to think of all that wasted sperm when your friend has sex with her hudband and think how easy it would be to ask them for some... but it's just not that simple.
Our donors family have all had family counselling to discuss and understand his reasons for donation and what it means for his own children.
He is strict in his donations geographically meaning that he will not doate to anyone in the same county.
We were also very specific about my son being able to contact our donor when he is old enough to ask him his own questions about why he donated to us. I feel this is so important for mental wellbeing in a child. We will be telling our son the truth when he asks and telling him a wonderful man helped his mommies have him, and when he is old enough then he can ask him whatever he wants.
As for them not having enough money?? Its not your fault they chose to spend their money in a different way.
Our wedding cost £1000. This may not be for everyone but we still had everything we wanted.
I think your so called friends are being selfish and if they are serious, I would consider what value they bring to your life.
I do understand that friends can be almost family to people, and I have many friends who I feel are family. However, unless you were absolutely 100% all on the same page together (however you chose to work it out), then you need to be very very clear and cut it dead now.
I know that not every same sex couple has our views on what they feel is right to tell their child about the donor, and everything I have talked about it just my view and why I feel that way. Everyone is different, but I want you to see a different way of a same sex couple having a child. This is just my story, and I hope that it helps you in some way.
Take care xx

It angers me because I have seen the men then get confused about what/if they play a role.

This was my main reason for not accepting offers of a donation from friends. Until the baby appears I don't think any man can be expected to know how he feels about it so it puts the man and the child at risk of a very distressing situation.

Does she understand that a child is not a pet? A jacket? A pair of Traveling Pants?
It would be your dh's CHILD with all of the love, care and responsibilities.

As for "flushing away" sperm. Damn right. If i were you, my reply would be, " MY husband, my husband's dna/sperm. Get lost."
The bond btwn my dh and myself is intertwined not just by our love but our children. I am kind, but i do NOT share my husband, or his swimmers. I'm proud to be his wife, the mother of his children. I've loved him, taken care of him, endured his family, and supported him for 30 years.
Part of the bond of marriage is sharing children. Marriage/partnership is important in raising dc. No marriage is strong enough to endure adding a child in this situation without difficulties.

If your dh got a woman pregnant and left her to raise it on her own, nobody would think that right. If your husband is a good, kind man, he wouldn't need able to ignore his child. Also, we know that children of sperm donors look for their fathers. It's a human need to know where you come from.

You would essentially be increasing your family.

She is not impressive with her choices in money and she certainly does not seem to have a grip on parenthood except in a fairy tale sort of way. The egg/swap/carry idea is just one more selfish part of this bc if they didn't, they would have money. Parenting is not about "i wants".

It doesn't need to be awkward. Just say that your husband says no. (After all, they're really asking him, not you.)

My ex was asked under similar circumstances. They were very open, said they were looking for a donor, but wanted it to be someone they knew. They liked my ex, thought he was a lovely man (he is), and asked if it's something we would consider. We just said, "we're not too comfortable with it, so no". They stopped asking and were completely cool with it - friendship remained the same. Funny thing is, now that I'm older and have seen many more friends struggling to have friends, I would be an egg donor in a heartbeat. I came to this decision too late (36).

If anyone wants sperm, I would suggest asking the man himself rather than asking his partner.
It's a bloody cheek to discuss it with any one but him.

Italian, I have sympathy for the father in my colleague's'situation too (although some of the detail of his behaviour was not great). I was, I guess, sharing the story from my colleague's perspective as she is the one who is in the same position as OP's friend, and if OP's friend wants sperm from someone she knows then she needs to be aware of the risk of the father wanting to be properly involved and decide whether she is prepared to risk this (or indeed even see it as being in the child's benefit) if she goes this route rather than donor sperm.

Absolutely not. No way.
This growing trend towards, 'convenience' conception, is really disturbing. I know someone who having found herself past 40 and too busy making money, to think she might ever want to make a baby, suddenly decided on a whim (driven by new much younger partner), that they would buy a few eggs in a country where anonymity is still guaranteed. Easy peasy, all it cost was money, and they now have twins that are in daycare 12 hours a day at 3 months old, while they continue making money, they don't actually even need! And worse still, they are planning not to tell their kids, how they were conceived. Because they don't think there is any point. I can't even begin to understand their position. Sorry, some things are just not meant to be. Much as you might sympathise, just say No.

With reference to the previous post, there are also lots of children being brought up in a caring environment who were conceived using a donor. It's not fair to tar all donor parents with the same brush.