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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Man asked for kiss from my four year old daughter

215 replies

thickgit · 28/10/2017 22:22

So, we were at the fair/fireworks this evening and my daughter was having turns on the giant inflatable slide. The man running it was about 75 I would say, and kept asking my daughter for a high five when she reached the bottom. When her goes were finished he bent down and pointed to his cheek, asking for her to give him a kiss. Thankfully, I was close enough to be able to step in and said no, no kissing thank you.
My daughter asked why not. That was tricky. The first thing that came out of my mouth was 'we don't kiss people we don't know' then I said 'only mummy, daddy and brother' . My daughter replied 'but I kiss Pamela' (girl in her class, not real name). I said that was okay.
Gosh, it's so tricky to get this stuff right! I appreciate any advice on what to say to my daughter to help keep her safe, that is age appropriate and that won't scare or confuse her
I'd also like your opinion on the scenario. I'm glad I stopped her kissing him. When the firework display started I went up to the man and said "you are out of order asking little girls for kisses, that's not on, I'm going to report you" He said nothing apart from Okay and he looked sheepish. This may have been one hundred percent innocent. . . Little old man who genuinely adores children.
Did I over react in your opinion? What would you have done in this situation?

OP posts:
donquixotedelamancha · 28/10/2017 23:35

"you are out of order asking little girls for kisses, that's not on, I'm going to report you"

No, I wouldn't have done that. You were absolutely correct to stop him, because it teaches your daughter boundaries; but publicly asking for a kiss is not automatically indicative of a child abuser.

I can imagine my elderly Mum or Dad doing something like this. Some of the older generation have a totally different view on boundaries with children. That is part of why so many historical abuses are coming to light, but it doesn't mean all old men who like kids are paedophiles.

I might well have said something to him, in a less confrontational way. I might report the incident to the police if I felt the same intuition you describe. I certainly wouldn't accuse someone without evidence.

Skarossinkplunger · 28/10/2017 23:35

Well I’m not playing top trumps here. It’s not grooming, read the definition.

cuirderussie · 28/10/2017 23:35

You didn't overreact OP. This "old man, doesn't know better" thing is nonsense. My dad is 70, is great with kids, really funny and daft. He wouldn't dream of asking a random kid for a kiss. Because it's fucking weird and inappropriate. AngryConfused

AGoodCupOfTea · 28/10/2017 23:35

Fuck me I hope none of you or your children are every groomed or abused because the shit you’re coming out with us utterly fucking offensive for those who have. You two are enraging me from the core and I hope to god both of your attitudes don’t continue into the next generation.

Inkandbone · 28/10/2017 23:36

Ah, see, ifmyou think someone might be abusing your child, you're just stupid.

Only people who read the tabloids would believe that. Run along now, people. A social worker employed to protect children has confirmed you should not pass along concerns to the police.

Misspollyhadadollie · 28/10/2017 23:36

I would report it.

There was a man I would see around town who always said hello to my children but abit overly friendly I though, yet harmless as I'm always standing right there. One day I saw a post on Facebook with his picture saying he had tried to lure a little girl out of her garden. And if anyone else had any interaction with the man should contact the police. I don't think it was just a Facebook thing either as I never seen him again after that. And he was just an old man who I thought was harmless.

Handy83 · 28/10/2017 23:36

When I was in Paris last Christmas there was a family on one of the metro trains. They had a park and then a little girls who I would say was age 3-5. It was late about 11pm and the girl was dancing. There was a guy further back on the train who got his phone camera out, at first I thought it was to take a photo of a dog that was on the train as they are not allowed on unless in a carrier. Anyway he starts filming the little girl, he had zoomed in and was holding the phone down by his knees to avoid detection. A young guy sat opposite us saw it too and shook his head. Had it been in England I would have called the police as if he is prepared to do that in public then what does his have on a computer. The op is quite right to report it, if that guy feels it's acceptable to ask for a kiss in public what does he do when no ones watching

SleightOfMind · 28/10/2017 23:37

I’ve had this (and have a multicultural family where ‘uncles’ asking for kisses is fine)
My takeaway from when I was a kid and forced to kiss men I’d never met before was be led by your DDs inclinations.
So, this is what I do with my dc in this scenario:
Scoop her up, put her on the hip furthest from the beardy kisser and say, ‘ let’s say goodbye. High five or kiss?
At that point it’s still all good, you’re not putting adult worries on little shoulders but, if they are feeling creeped out, and you’re feeling worried there’s an elegant out for all innocent parties. You can also get in a good hard stare if you think it was needed.

Well done for speaking to him about it afterwards. I’d hate to think that a genuinely lovely old man was seen as criminal for enjoying the innocent affection of a small child but asking the wrong parents’ child for a kiss on the cheek could end very badly.

Obv if he is dodgy, he might think twice next time.

Skarossinkplunger · 28/10/2017 23:38

NSPCC definition of abuse Grooming is when someone builds an emotional connection with a child to gain their trust for the purposes of sexual abuse, sexual exploitation or trafficking

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 28/10/2017 23:39

Police assess and gather collateral and evidence.onus isn’t on op to find evidence
So if op felt it warranted a report,that’s up to her
If your elderly parents do kiss children they have no connection to I’d advise them not to. It’s not an affectionate display it’s inappropriate.

Fruitcocktail6 · 28/10/2017 23:41

Skarossinkplunger

I just went on to the website to check that too, as I didn't understand how this situation could count as grooming. It definitely doesn't.

AGoodCupOfTea · 28/10/2017 23:43

I really do not care what google says, what definitions tell you is grooming or abuse. What I will tell you is that being abused and groomed or whatever the fuck you want to define it as, has horrific long lasting symptoms beyond childhood. Which is only exacerbated by people like you minimising the situation.

This old man ask her 4 year old for a kiss, it is wrong and it needs reporting.

CamelliaSinensis35 · 28/10/2017 23:44

Well done OP for protecting your daughter. With your influence she'll grow into a woman who isn't pressured into meting 'nice', a compliant woman, 'give us a smile darlin', who isn't swayed by men to give the reaction they want. My generation were not so lucky, we were conditioned to just go along with mens wishes and be nice pleasant girls. You are raising an assertive child who knows her rights and has ownership over her own body.

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 28/10/2017 23:44

Seems Some of you are so conditioned by manners,conventions and sense of respect for elders that you’d feel inhibited speaking up about an adult asking child for a kiss...if he’d been 18yo..36yo..would that have made a difference?is the barrier the perception your of the older adult?

Original poster
thickgit · 28/10/2017 23:45

Battleaxe "But I don't see what his hope of future access or time alone could possibly have been."

Oh gosh, this saddens me. Obviously, the scenario and all different possibilities have been running through my mind since about 8 o'clock this evening. So does he need to have future access or time alone with my daughter to be inappropriate with her? Not at all. Is it not abuse if it happens only once, or in front of me? Fuck that shit (excuse my language). A few things that have unfortunately passed through my mind:
What if when he helped her off the slide, he touched her inappropriately? After all, he couldn't possibly have done that with me standing right there. Yes he could have. But if I'd caught him doing so, how easy would have been to worm his way out of being guilty, after all, it was withing plain sight of many people
What if I wasn't physically close enough to pull her away. I was so bloody quick! He would have got that kiss and, though it sickens me to write this down, he may have had perverse satisfaction from it. Just because he'll never see her again, am I supposed to be okay with that
There were many people who weren't watching like hawks because, after all, the children are in a safe confined enthronement right? This guy, if he is dodgy, has access to children and can abuse easily, no matter how 'low level' if there's even such a thing. It's the same reason, for example, why I'm right there when they strap my guys in (we go to theme parks a lot).
I've just remembered something that happened at Butlins last year. Indoor ride, daughter and others going around and around. Young teenage guy tickling children. They were loving it. I told him not to tickle my daughter. But what I didn't do is take it any further. Today, I would, thanks to MN
I will call 101 and tell them what happened tonight at the fireworks display. I would be irresponsible not to.

OP posts:
donquixotedelamancha · 28/10/2017 23:46

"If your elderly parents do kiss children they have no connection to I’d advise them not to. It’s not an affectionate display it’s inappropriate."

I assume that's directed at me? Well, they don't go around kissing random kids, but they are naive. I agree completely with your sentiment and that conversation has been had. Ultimately they operate with a completely different set of assumptions about these things to me.

AGoodCupOfTea · 28/10/2017 23:46

Skarosssinkplunger please find a new job, you’re not helping any child right now with that mentality.

I’m off to bed had enough of the minimising for one night. When people start to take things like this seriously and stop fucking categorising it into “oh it’s not grooming if it he didn’t say I love you” then I’ll keep fighting for what I know is right, and for all the others who suffer because of this attitude.

mcpound · 28/10/2017 23:47

What if an older lady asked a 4 yr old for a kiss? Is that acceptable or would you be rushing to the police to report that aswell?

OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 28/10/2017 23:47

Maybe he was an innocent guy who's gone home to his wife tonight and told her that times have changed and that you can't even get a kiss from a wee child, maybe he is a grooming type, but I think it was a bit much to tell him you were going to report him.

Surely the fact that there's even a chance he could be the grooming type and therefore pose a risk to children, means it's worth reporting him?

Why are we putting the feelings of "innocent, naive old men" who are asking four year old girls for kisses ahead of the safety of children?

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 28/10/2017 23:48

I’m not being confrontational, I’m simply responding to your post Don

Skarossinkplunger · 28/10/2017 23:49

I really do not care what google says, what definitions tell you is grooming or abuse. What I will tell you is that being abused and groomed or whatever the fuck you want to define it as, has horrific long lasting symptoms beyond childhood

And I don’t dispute any of that. All I said was it wasn’t grooming. So get off your high horse and please don’t accuse me of minimising abuse.

Skarossinkplunger · 28/10/2017 23:50

Oh and as I just read your last post while your close moving down from your high horse you can fuck off too.

donquixotedelamancha · 28/10/2017 23:50

"Some of you are so conditioned by manners,conventions and sense of respect for elders that you’d feel inhibited speaking up about an adult asking child for a kiss"

I think maybe one poster has said the old bloke was behaving acceptably. I see that as a huge positive that most people these days see the need to teach kids agency over their own bodies.

I don't think most posters (me included) who caution against overreaction are in any way justifying the behaviour itself.

OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 28/10/2017 23:51

thick try not to let yourself get caught up in the "what if"s. They keep me awake at night. We've had to uproot our lives - move house, change schools, take time off work etc - and I still agonise over the "what if"s, but you have to try not to or it'll drive you crazy.

Focus on what you have done - you refused; you pointed out that what he was doing is wrong; you protected your child - and what you can do going forwards, which is to report it so that just in case he isn't a sweet innocent old man who likes getting kisses from four year old girls, you've done your part in making people aware.

permatiredmum · 28/10/2017 23:51

Am with my SIL at the moment who is a sw in children's services. She agrees with the posters who say it is NOT grooming and although the guy probably should not be asking OPs DD for a kiss, the parents were there, he had no further chance of seeing the girl again unaccompanied , and knew that.There is no evidence he would behave in the same way with an unaccompanied child that is pure conjecture.