....to not invite this girl to my daughter's party because she's a nightmare!!!

[smokinhotchilli]

This is so tricky! And all this is new to me so any advice would be great.
My daughter has been friends with a girl called Rose (made up name) for two years. They are both 4. There's a group of kids who have been close since nursery & they have all started school & are in the same class.
Have never been very close to Rose's mum but the girls occasionally meet up at weekends .... Or used to...
Since starting school, Rose has become a bit of a nightmare. According to my daughter, none of the group want to play with her, she hits, shouts, pushes, doesn't listen and is really naughty (all told to me by my daughter & the other kids) and they often tell the teacher .... I've seen Rose doing all of this before & after school.
My daughter is refusing to have her at her birthday party which is really soon & won't invite her. The mum texted to ask what's happening for my daughters birthday...
What would you do?
AIBU to ask the mum if everything is ok at home & mention Rose's behaviour in a gentle & considerate way? And then explain that my daughter doesn't want her at the party? Arghhhhh! Don't want to upset anyone.

When DS was little my rule was either have a whole class/all the boys party and that means you invite the couple of boys you don’t really get on with or you have a smaller gathering and invite who you want. In your shoes I wouldn’t invite Rose: and whilst lots of PP are obviously very kind (a) why are they putting another child’s wishes ahead of their own child and (b) it’s not their job to be social engineers!

How often do people post on MN about how women are conditioned to put up with crap behaviour, to put their own wishes and best interests last? Well, here we see the conditioning starting. At FOUR years old. And by other women

I completely agree with this!

It is a tricky situation, with many perspectives, but ultimately, inviting the child teaches the OP's daughter that it's more important to be 'nice' than to respect and protect yourself.

My personal feeling is that I would speak with the class teacher about it. She will have a better idea of the actual friendship dynamics in school.

They are relying on adults to shape them into people who won't push or bully or exclude when they're older

It's not bullying to not want to be friends with someone who hits you and calls you names or invite them to your birthday party. You don't have to be friends with anyone. Schools are generally quite clear about this.

If they don't invite someone because they don't like the fact they wear glasses, or "wear funny clothes" or their haircut is "weird" or some other harmless aspect about that person, that's very different.

But I don't think children should be taught to accept being hit or called names.

even some of her friends are saying 'we don't want Rose there'

I'm sure being excluded by all her friends will not help Rose settle into school any easier.

She sounds like an sad and lonely little girl, battling with the transition to school.

They are relying on adults to shape them into people who won't push or bully or exclude when they're older

Oh and they are also relying on adults to turn them into people who won't put up with abusive relationships, or crap situations at work or CFs in life in general.

There are many, many threads on here from women who can't walk away from obviously shit partners/friends/family because the message to be understanding, tolerant and kind is so deeply ingrained.

I was reading a thread the other week from a young woman who was being pressured to meet a much older man. So many of the replies told her she should be 'polite' and 'nice'.

I wonder how old these women were when this convention was learnt?

Of course we should be compassionate, kind, tolerant, and teach our children to be so, that how society functions successfully. But not at the expense of own safety and personal wellbeing.

I'm sure being excluded by all her friends will not help Rose settle into school any easier.

It's the responsibility of her parents and the school to support this. Not the other children to allow themselves to be hit and called names in the process at their own birthday parties.

Which I sure is true, but it's not OP's daughter's job to fix it!

Yes, she should be kind at her at school, of course, and encouraged to include Rose in games etc

But her own birthday party should be protected.

I'd invite her if she is in the same class.
However it is clear where rose is getting her lack of manners from if you have already been cornered by the mum.

I had a 'Rose' at school and I'm an old giffer. Mum invited her anyway and my parties were ruined by her. After two where she was invited went wrong, I was only allowed parties with Gran and my Aunt and Uncle. I actually asked for it that way because I was so abused by 'Rose'.
I would answer the text with an honesty. Something like DD and Rose don't get on though do they? Any fall out I would deal with but nothing would get me to invite Rose.

Maybe your DD is the one excluding and bullying Rosie

Have you spoken to the teacher to find out what is happening? My DD is old for her school year & mature but her version of events isn't reliable & certainly doesn't include an overview of all aspects of the situation. If you speak to the teacher, you will get a better understanding of whether Rose's behaviour is unprovoked or provoked and whether your DD is one of those provoking her behaviour. Of course, if it's half term where you are & your DD's party is imminent, this won't help!

I think I'd include her.

When I was 11 I had a whole class party because that was how it worked where we lived (also new school, new country for my family). One girl turned up in an old-fashioned frock and gave me a dolly; I later found out she was alienated by most of the class as she hit/bit/was childish and rude. But her little face at my party.... She was so happy. I was a bit at the time but in retrospect I'm so glad she was invited - it was almost certainly the only school party she went to that year.

In your case I'd remind your daughter of the fun times she's had with Rose in the past and how Rose might not be very happy at school right now, so inviting her would be kind and might make her feel better.

I'd also text the mum and say 'We're doing such and such for the birthday. Would you mind staying for the party? The teachers tell me that they haven't been getting on as well as usual at school, but if we're both there then I'm sure we can smooth out any bumps. Looking forward to it, see you soon!' That kind of assumes a yes and makes it harder for her to refuse

Good luck!

This thread makes me sad for little Rose. She's at the ripe old age of 4. Children are not being taught to be pushovers if they are taught to include. The mere notion of a little bunch saying 'don't bring Rose' sounds like a little bunch who have never been taught not to be mean. The parents can supervise. It might well be that Rose is actually being the one 'bullied' (not generally a term I use for 4 year olds).

I've found this thread really interesting as i posted a while ago when DC was invited to a boys party and didn't want to go. The reason - 'he smacks me and thinks it's funny' and a shedload of other stuff too

The unanimous response on here was why would I put DC through that? That at five they knew their own mind and why would I override them

It's dcs birthday soon and they do not want to invite the boy. All I've heard this term is how he argues with everyone else and only wants to play what he wants to play. My DC has pointed out that if he came he would spoil it and cause arguments (and probably hurt people as another mum has told me he's been bruising her son too)

To the suggestions of inviting the parents along to supervise - op, you know the parents. Would they stop her? In our case, the boy's parents have actively told him to break our house rules when here and watched passively when he threw himself headfirst behind our furniture nearly knocking a massive picture off the wall

We have talked a lot about it. About how he might feel if he is left out etc. But my DC is scared they will cause a scene, upset everyone and hurt them. Thankfully the boys crazy parents are blanking me so maybe I've lucked out of any awkward conversations!

I don't know if anyone has suggested above, but do you have time to have a shortish play date with just Rose and your DD and make your own judgement? Might be an eye opener. Perhaps one of two of the other children and gauge the dynamics and behaviour?

You should include Rose and discuss with Rose’s mum the rough patch that their friendship has hit and what to do about it. Rose’s behaviour is triggered by something. By excluding Rose because she is not flavour of the month is setting the example that friends can come and go - truthfully, this is how cliques happen and your approach is encouraging it.

Seriously, your daughter is 4 and needs to be taught that she can’t just exclude because someone is annoying her, you need to teach her to have boundaries respect herself by not engaging with negative behaviour, but this needs to be through discussion with Rose and her mum. If you deal with this properly now it’ll help things in the long term, they’re going to be together for years at school.

Sorry but I disagree wth a lot of the answers here.

I would NOT invite Rose.
It's a small party, only 5 children, not a whole class party.
The dd doesn't want to invite her. So why should she be overridden? Because they played together before? At that age, children change their 'loyalties and friendship' on a daily basis. Saying she has to invite is telling her she can't chose her own friends!!

Inwouod get back to the mum sayingbthat your dd has a small b'day party this year with only a few children there. And that unfortunately, your dd had to chose from her list of her friends and decided not to invite Rose.

hiddley It makes me sad for Rose too.

There is a lot that could be done to help and support Rose's transition. There are also things the other parents could do. But it isn't pleasant being hit. Or shouted at. Or pushed.

Four year olds are very sensitive to this. It's upsetting, painful and a bit scary for them. It's a horrible thing seeing a small child flinch from fear of being hit.

They feel the injustice of not 'deserving' it, of the other person have not respected them as a person or their personal space.

I don't think anyone should have to tolerate spending their birthday party with someone who hurts them.

The OP's daughter and her friends do sound quite outspoken about this. Maybe they are a clique of 'mean girls' in the making. Or maybe they are also just little children who don't want to get hurt and talking to adults who they believe will protect them, is making them more confident to speak out.

I have to say I dint quite understand the idea of inviting Rose.

It's not a full class b'day party so she isn't being excluded anymore than all the other children in the class who arent invited.
It seems that people are feeling sad for a child who is basically hitting other children on a regular basis. And sad for the mum who can. See her dd being excluded.
Why??

The unanimous response on here was why would I put DC through that? That at five they knew their own mind and why would I override them

At the risk of getting shouted down...

I think the responses to you were probably different because the 'perpetrator' (for want of a better word) was a boy.

I’ve not had to deal with this myself yet (DD is only 3 and we do family parties) but I am a teacher. I see friendship dynamics daily. I hear the children’s sides and also observe what is happening. Quite frequently, it’s a 50:50 split of unkindness.

I really would speak to the teacher first and find out what is happening. I would prepare myself to hear that my DD isn’t as innocent as she is making out. Rose may be hitting, etc. because the other girls keep leaving her out and she doesn’t know how to deal with it.

Speak to the teacher and go from there. If your DD and her friends aren’t being mean but are still being hit, I wouldn’t invite her because they don’t have to put up with that behaviour. I would say that your daughter needs to be kind to Rose even if they aren’t friends. I say this to the children at school all the time. “You don’t have to be friends and play together but you do have to be kind to each other.”

She’s reception, not 14 so of course you influence it. I’d speak to the mum and say that she would like to invite Rose, but could the mum stay as you don’t want to supervise 30 kids. TBH most parents stay in Reception anyway. Then if she misbehaves the mum is there.

Oh and do not, in a gentle and considerate way ask the mum whether everything is ok at home and then tell her that Rose isn't invited.

I don't know, but people don't seem to have any manners these days. Suggest the child is coming from a dysfunctional home and then suckerpunch with a left hook that she ain't welcome.....? Gentle and considerate indeed. Like a bull in a china shop is gentle and considerate.

If you're concerned about how things are at home , air your concerns to the school. I'd be more concerned with a little group ganging up on Rose (don't invite Rose etc.) than I would be about Rose's behaviour.

I would say that your daughter needs to be kind to Rose even if they aren’t friends. I say this to the children at school all the time. “You don’t have to be friends and play together but you do have to be kind to each other.”

Absolutely.

And this is a very different message to "it's important to be nice".