....to not invite this girl to my daughter's party because she's a nightmare!!!

[smokinhotchilli]

This is so tricky! And all this is new to me so any advice would be great.
My daughter has been friends with a girl called Rose (made up name) for two years. They are both 4. There's a group of kids who have been close since nursery & they have all started school & are in the same class.
Have never been very close to Rose's mum but the girls occasionally meet up at weekends .... Or used to...
Since starting school, Rose has become a bit of a nightmare. According to my daughter, none of the group want to play with her, she hits, shouts, pushes, doesn't listen and is really naughty (all told to me by my daughter & the other kids) and they often tell the teacher .... I've seen Rose doing all of this before & after school.
My daughter is refusing to have her at her birthday party which is really soon & won't invite her. The mum texted to ask what's happening for my daughters birthday...
What would you do?
AIBU to ask the mum if everything is ok at home & mention Rose's behaviour in a gentle & considerate way? And then explain that my daughter doesn't want her at the party? Arghhhhh! Don't want to upset anyone.

At four the adults should be intervening to help the children resolve the situation, not just pushing them away.
What is that teaching Rose?

The OP's daughter needn't have her party spoiled because enough adults will be there ensuring that won't happen.

I'm sure there are other kids in the class that would be more deserving of an invitation yet no-one seems to be up in arms about them being excluded?

The other children aren't part of this specific friendship group who have been included together in the past.

To treat any four year old like this isn't exactly modelling kind behaviour to her is it?

Don't invite her.....you'll only ruin your dd's birthday.
The girls don't want her there for a real reason - not just because they're 'going through a phase'.

If you invite her then you're basically telling your dd that her feelings don't count, that people can push her around and she has no control over her own boundaries - even in her own home.
Your home is meant to be her 'safe space'........she's decided on her own boundary regards that kind of behaviour and that should be supported.
It would be awful if you trampled all over her like this.

Plus - what happens when the other child starts acting out and refuses to behave/apologise?
What happens if the other kids refuse to engage with her?
Better that she's not invited than turn up and upset herself as well as others.

Just tell the other mum that you're having a small party and dd has already invited the maximum number allowed.

It's downright rude and presumptuous of her to text you like that - not difficult to see where the child is picking up her behaviour/attitude from!

Wow this is tough..and this is why I only do family bday parties (misses bigger picture and point of thread)

DO NOT ask if everything is ok at home, that would be seen as massively presumptuous and condescending I would think.
Give rose a chance, but assure your daughter that if ANY hitting or name calling comes from Rose, her mother will immediately be called and she won't ruin the whole party. keep a very close eye.
On one hand we have a very young kid and being the only one excluded would be quite painful (and she WILL know about it)
But on the other, nobody should be forced to be around someone who assaults them physically or verbally, especially a very young kid on their birthday.

I think that would be a good compromise maybe

Don't invite her. Your DD doesn't want her there and it sounds like it would be an issue if she were there. Your child's birthday party is not the place to try to deal with this issue (speaking from my own experience).

There are kids invited from the friendship group and also children who aren't part of it.
There are no guarantees that the party won't be spoiled just because adults are there. There have been adults present when the op has witnessed her child being hit before. How on the ball is the other mum? Is it going to be a case of the op having to helicopter the other child when she is meant to be hosting?
I wouldn't leave one child out of a class but at a small party there is no way the ops dd should be forced to invite a child who hurts her at school.
And I say this as the parent of a child with sn who did lash out when he was 4. Not his fault but also didn't hurt any less because of that. He didn't get invited to a lot of parties and I didn't expect it tbh. It helped him learn how to behave in a way that makes people want to invite him. People should never have to suck up physical assault in the name of being inclusive.

If you invite her then you're basically telling your dd that her feelings don't count, that people can push her around and she has no control over her own boundaries - even in her own home.
Your home is meant to be her 'safe space'........she's decided on her own boundary regards that kind of behaviour and that should be supported

Agree with this. The number of parents who seem unable to fathom that their child will remember feeling hurt and unhappy, and that their feelings are important at that age, astounds me at times. If another child is unkind to them it is what it is, you cannot solve everything. & even if trying to, I don't think at the birthday of a child they've made feel upset and anxious and likely scared, is the best place to do it. If you want to be all things to all people then fine, but don't force your child to be

I would reply with something like. "We're having a very small party." No need to say more.

"even some of her friends are saying 'we don't want Rose there' "

Sounds quite nasty. I can't imagine 4 year olds saying this nicely.

How often do people post on MN about how women are conditioned to put up with crap behaviour, to put their own wishes and best interests last? Well, here we see the conditioning starting. At FOUR years old. And by other women.

Four-year-old children are still learning their way in the world. They are relying on adults to shape them into people who won't push or bully or exclude when they're older. Isolating them and making them feel
different is not the answer.

This little girl needs adults to actively teach her better behaviour. I'm not saying she should be allowed to turn up and push and bully unimpeded, obviously. Just that she shouldn't be left out of her friendship group.

It's not 'conditioning' girls to accept anything, fgs.

Where I grew up, the rules for birthdays were clear. No kid was excluded, and funny enough bullying was not a big problem. The unity in the class was very good and people were included and the standards were set and expected. A 4 year old has no say in my book, as they lack a lot of knowledge, consequence and follow on effects. Some 4 year olds have a tough time with the transition and react badly, it goes over, but the response of exclusion and not of support with parents to guide and set the rules is worse.

Some 4 year olds have a tough time with the transition and react badly, it goes over, but the response of exclusion and not of support with parents to guide and set the rules is worse.

Exactly.

The op isn't this girls parent and it isn't her job to upset her own daughter to try and sort out this other child's problems. Friendship groups are very fluid at this age. Kids will play with whoever plays nicely as they should. If you aren't behaving in a friendly way then you aren't going to be part of a friendship group.

The op isn't this girls parent and it isn't her job to upset her own daughter to try and sort out this other child's problems.

Oh right, she should just wash her hands of it then.

She is four, she's not old enough to be a 'bad kid'. How about talking to the parent about her behaviour?

I guess to me it comes under the 'do as you would be done by' umbrella.

If it was your little 4-year-old girl whose behaviour was so bad other kids were all talking about her, what would you want the parents to do? Leave her out of parties, or talk to you about it?

A mix of boys and girls plus old friends with new friends? As long as the entire old friendship group is included then there should be no problem with no inciting Rose.

Is she always like this now or just in groups in school? Have you been on play dates with just her and your DD since school has began?

I've always thought that the child invites who they want and you go with that.

Something about this disturbs me though. They are 4. The 'friends' are saying don't invite her. So you have a little gang of 4 year olds excluding another 4 year old. Sure, could be her behaviour but what if her behaviour is a result of the exclusion. Takes one dominant child to decide they don't like someone and suddenly everyone is agreeing and excluding.

So maybe at 4 it's not as clear cut as I thought.

Poor little rose.

Id be reluctant to leave out a child aged 4

Yeap. My dd was in a class with just a handful of girls. There was one girl that the others found very hard to get on with but none of us parents ever allowed them to exclude her to exclude from a party or event. It's just not kind and we have to teach our children to be kind.

I had this problem for a number of years. In my daughter's case, it was a little boy who was out of control. I made a point of never excluding him, but got an extra adult in to monitor him one-on-one throughout the party, so that he wasn't able to misbehave, and when he got a bit over-excited, his monitor stepped out of proceedings with him for a few minutes while he calmed down. My DD always had a great time at her parties because this little lad didn't have an opportunity to misbehave and I explained to her in advance that he wouldn't be allowed to punch or hit or spoil things in any way. Yes, it's a bit of a pain sometimes to have to hire in extra help, bit worth it overall I think. And the child concerned got to learn a bit about how he was expected to behave at parties and have fun with others.

If it's a small party, then close monitoring is easy to do; just make sure you have an extra adult, or savvy teen spare to help. For this reason, I wouldn't encourage the mother to stay, because it is more difficult to intervene in the event that a parent sits there and doesn't address their child's poor behaviour.

I don't believe in excluding DC. And for those that argue that parents should respect their dcs wishes, well yes, of course their opinions and feelings should be part of the equation. But I personally didn't feel I was doing my daughter any favours by teaching her that it is right to leave people out.

Also, if someone as young as four is misbehaving, then they either haven't been taught to behave properly (not their fault) or they have other issues which make it hard for them to behave (again, not their fault). I don't know any four year olds who are deliberately malicious!

Your daughter's party, why force her to socialise with a child she doesn't like?
I have no problem with leaving one out. Even if the rest of the class comes.

Look it’s fine just to invite a mix of her closest friends. You could try and teach her about inclusion (invite the girl for play dates) but this really isn’t the time to push it. Inclusion shouldnt be at the cost of your daughters happiness. Your daughters happiness is just as important as the girls happiness. Nobody should be hit or hurt at their birthday party. And I do think you could be honest with the Mum. You could say something like the girls are going through a difficult time at the moment and Dd is worried about being hit. You could try and get them together for a play date to see if things can helped . party wise you’re having a small quiet one though.

It’s only a small party so invite who you like. Limited numbers are natural and of course you need to invite only DDs closest Friends.

Do not invite Rose. Your daughter does not want here there and a birthday party for a few attendees is not the right place for worrying about inclusion.

AIBU to ask the mum if everything is ok at home & mention Rose's behaviour in a gentle & considerate way?

Absolutely do not text that. You'll come across as the batshit 'headtilt' Mum and she'll know you've all been discussing her.

You might be surprised. In DSs previous school there was a child who was an absolute bloody nightmare and could never keep his hands to himself. DS loved the bones of him though so we invited him and he was as good as gold.

I think this is one of those situations where you have to either override your daughter's wishes (and she's 4 fgs, she doesn't get the final say on matters as complex as this) or be brave and honest and kindly tell her mum the truth about Rose's behaviour creating a barrier to the friendship. This about children yes, but it's an adult matter.

Personally I'd speak to the mum before making any final decision. It's all about the approach....smile, be pleasant and make it clear you're not out to vilify her child and a discussion will follow.

Don’t reply to text.
Next time you see her just say your daughter was very anxious about having her at the moment further to the pushing and kicking and scratching behaviour.

That’s it.

Rose will ask them why she’s not invited and your daughter won’t say “oh well it’s just a few friends and I’m saving for Christmas”. She will say “cos you’re mean and you hurt people”.

I wouldn’t have Rose over.