To think some children ARE just naughty?

[Dancingfairy]

I'm sick of every time a child is naughty people say they "probably have autism" my daughter has autism and isn't badly behaved at all, (violent etc) is it just me who notices this?! Naughty behaviour doesn't equal autism, just frustrated with it getting a bad name! Aibu in thinking some children ARE just naughty?

Not necessarily NoMap, it's possible for a child (or adult for that matter) to have a very limited diet and otherwise be NT. There are lots of possible reasons for a limited diet, not just a parent making excuses whilst shovelling junk into her child.
Your response to my post came across as assuming my child had no problem trying different textures of sweets, insinuating poor parenting, when this is as much an issue for him as other foods. We suspect he is autistic, but he may not be.

YANBU In that not everything can be put down to autism.

YABU to think that some kids are "just naughty". I think lots of children who are curious are labelled naughty. Children who are independent are labelled naughty. And children who are badly patented are labelled naughty.

And children who are hungry or tired, as OP have said, are labelled naughty.

I think the problem is with the word 'naughty' in itself. It's subjective and actually meaningless because it describes the failure to meet/follow an expectation held by the person using the word rather than the behaviour of the child. And one person's 'naughty' will not necessarily be the same as the next person's. Certain ways of behaving will always be 'naughty' or 'good' but there is a huge grey area in the middle that is dependent on situation and personal expectation.

Autism is one factor that affects the subjective nature of 'naughtiness'. Other additional needs, mood, family circumstances, bullying, boredom, incentive, hunger, personality, peer pressure, desire for attention etc are some of the others.

I don't think children are 'naughty' for no reason, any more than I think they demonstrate other types of behaviour for no reason. Humans behave in a particular way because they believe they will get something they want or need from that behaviour at that particular time - whether that's reassurance, confidence, fun, attention or something else.

I think you can even include an autistic meltdown in that assertion - it's a coping mechanism for a brain that is overloaded and needs to shut off. Some people might describe that as 'naughty'. It isn't of course but is it any more accurate to call a small child screaming and throwing things in a supermarket because it's 2 hours past their lunch and nap time naughty? Or a child who has been told for some arbitrary reason decided by someone else that they are not to eat any sweets on a school trip but does so anyway as naughty.

I would say all three of those things are behavioural choices which make sense to the child and suit them at that time. If someone else describes them as naughty that's not necessarily the child's problem (though of course it might be!

Meanness, bullying and anything that affects other people as well as the child producing the behaviour is a very different thing.

It is reasonable for you as a parent to want other people to understand that just because your own DD has autism, that does not necessarily mean she behaves badly.

But it is not reasonable for you as a parent to presume that other parents' children are "just naughty". Whether the children have autism or not.

And of course for many children autism is associated with behaviour problems and that's how their autism first comes to light. If it's not causing a problem the condition goes unnoticed.

Correct, some parents are just as bad.

But Pearl, he bullied to get an 'ego boost', couldn't have been the happiest could he? I'm not excusing his behaviour at all but must have been insecure to act so horribly so he could feel good (I know, I remember being mean at times and it was to feel better by putting someone else down :/ Thankfully short-lived and minor but enough to get some insight)

Lakielady. I had one just the same. A nightmare from 0-15 now a delightful
29 year old. DS1 was extremely naughty too but always scraped through life to the next level and is extremely successful though still very argumentative. My DD1, on the other hand, was angelic but has a much more troubled adulthood.

Totally agree. My DD is autistic and was never ever in trouble at school and has never ever acted up in public. She can be a complete witch with me but that's because she uses so much energy keeping things in while she's with other people and I'm here safe person.

My son wasn't naughty though. He simply had no language, his social skills were non existent and he sat there like a big gorgeous expressionless baby/toddler.

I was told my son didn't speak properly because of my Northern Irish accent. Despite the fact that my two daughters, his sisters, spoke perfectly well.

I have spent the afternoon with a 10 year old whose family are trying to get him statemented as autistic/adhd all I could see is a little boy who clamours for attention. His behaviour is supposed to be bad but I only ever see a little boy that can do nothing right. His mother and grandmother are verbally abusive, think 'shut up you little shit', step dad brushes him off in favour of his own dc, and his bio dad doesn't want to see him.
He isn't very bright and his younger sister has caught him up. School say no sen, just lower ability.
Now I only see him in snapshot, so maybe there is more but I see a confused sad little boy with inadequate parenting.

Once again i dont mean naughty as in playing up having a tantrum etc dd does this, she isn't an angel I mean violence/aggressive/bad language. My dd was diagnosed due to bad behaviour. She wasn't speaking a single word by 2 and had a lot of sensory issues.

@Dancingfairy what if the violence/aggression/bad language is aimed at themselves? Are they still naughty?

Yes.

Dancing to describe your dd behaviour as naughty when it is in fact due to her ASD and out of her control, is flawed, and wrong. My dd used to go to an infant mainstream school, where the lovely headteacher had a older dd with ASD, dd was 5, she used to scream, cry, hit, bite. The headteacher told me, that she is not doing it because she is naughty, it is because she cannot cope and is in distress.

What is it with the naughty and ASD thing? My DS is HFA and I know lots of autistic kids. None of them are "naughty". Some have meltdowns but all the naughty kids I know are NT. I would consider naughty to be bullying, mucking around in class, being rude to people. My DS may struggle socially and have a memory like a sieve but he is none of the above.

Your dd dancing was not dx because she was naughty, it was because she presented certain behaviours that fell within the triad of Autistic Spectrum Disorder. If a child is being violent and aggressive towards themselves and others, this obviously presents outside the normal category of behaviour, so something underlying is wrong, whether its MH, Autism, ADHD or whatever. That behaviour is not naughty it is due to a person's disability.

Dancing claiming that behaviours which are a result/consequence of a disability is 'naughty' is disablist.

Oh for goodness sake everyone I know IRL uses the term naughty when their child is misbehaving it's only online I ever see people saying it's damaging!! Or whatever. My point was I don't mean tantrums, crying over a doll in the shop as me not buying it isn't due to her autism. Like I said I mean swearing, damaging property, attacking people.

And you also consider self harm to be naughty.

Btw DD is not naughty... she's a pain in the butt.

"Like I said I mean swearing, damaging property, attacking people."

So when my son is overwhelmed, has a meltdown which usually means he swears, damages property and attacks people, all entirely due to his autism, he's being naughty?

Ok OP, now I know you're just being goady.

Like I said I mean swearing, damaging property, attacking people
OHFFS OP.
These are very common in young people with Autism.
My DS swears and routinely damages property and will attack when very upset.
I wasn't calling goady fucker at first because this can be a useful discussion but anyone who claims swearing, damaging property and attacking people are NOT frequently part of ASD is either talking from a place of ignorance or trying to upset people.
Which are you?