To think friend is being very snobbish towards me?

[ACommonPerson]

My friend lives on a private housing estate. It started off 18 years ago as a few small new houses bordering the council estate but popularity rocketed and the estate became huge. Thousands of new homes built, massive homes with triple driveways, balconys etc . It became so big that the city boundary has been extended to fit it in and they got their own shops, a salon, beauty parlour, butchers and deli etc as well as their own health centre and primary school which again was so popular, it's had to be extended. They have their own neighbourhood committee and now refer to themselves as a village. The neighbourhood that it became is now the most affluent area in the city.

It still neighbours the council estate however and I live on the border (council estate side).

Anyway, looking for primary school for DS next year and I said to friend that I intend to get him in the "village" school if I can as it has an excellent reputation. She looked shocked and said "you can't!". I asked why and she said that the school is there to serve the village and is already over subscribed. I said I realised it was over subscribed but it's a comp school and therefore is not just there to serve certain houses! I'm going to try my luck and if he gets in, brilliant.

She was almost angry and said she doesn't agree with people from outside the "village" trying to get into the school as it's hard enough for the people within it. We went back and forth on it and then she came quite defensive and said "to be blunt, the school is good for a reason, and that's because it doesn't have to take in kids from the council estates. She justified this by saving "there is a reason you don't want to take your DS to your catchment school and I'm betting it's because you know it's full of council estate kids and will be rough as hell for that reason.

I became a bit upset and said my DS had just as much right to a good education as her kids. She softened up slightly and said she agreed with me and she hopes he does get in but part of the reason people pay the high prices for these houses is for the school and it doesn't seem justified that the school will become swamped with council estate kids so whilst she hopes my DS gets in, she hopes no other kids get in off the estate.

I'm fuming! Name changes as she'll probably recognise this but I don't care!! Snobbery or does she have a point? Should the rest of us suck it up with shit schools because we haven't paid to live on the private estate?

as you would with council tax services for example.

Just to clarify. Council tax services are usually paying towards council services.

Is this Applewood in Ireland???

Euxton Lane used to feel 'French' because of those trees. You know, when you see pictures of roads in France where they have massive plane or horse chestnut trees lining the road.

Obviously you'd have to squint and imagine a fair bit (in the day) looking down EL

Now, blandy mcbland.

This is the council however who rushed through planning to knock down the Prince of Wales in the town centre, whilst people were trying to get it listed. Or the row of 18th C houses/shops near the bus station that was knocked down and rebuilt 'in the style of' and who allowed that carbuncle of Booths to be built opp St Lawrence's. Don't get me started on the (expensive) squash courts that happened to be built in the old baths and then not long after the baths were demolished for the new baths with the 'fun' pool...

I don't go home much anymore. Most of the changes I see are a bit depressing.

I immediately thought Buckshaw!

Neither of you want to educate your children with the children from the council estate - surely you are both snobs or you both just want the best school for your children .

Has the OP specifically said she doesn't want her ds educated with the children from the council estate?

Or does she just think the village school is the better school- which might be for all sorts of reasons.

I have grave concerns about at least two of our local schools (several estates among their intake), but it's about the management, not the pupils. One is run by a religious group I don't trust and another has gone downhill since the new head took over. Absolutely nothing to do with where the children come from- except indirectly as I suspect it governs the attitudes of management and staff.

I know a family on buckshaw village, and I have to say i have no problem my kids going to school on the local council estate. I would however have a issue if they were spending every day with said friends awfully behaved offspring with no manners and no respect. But hey they have a naice house! ( that's already falling to bits😂)

It's kingswood in Hull. Or "Royal Bransholme" as we call it.

DD has just started at reception at a school that is surrounded a large council estate on one side and houses costing at least £1million on the other. Until a few years ago, the council estate was just out of the catchment - they are very narrow around here in a densely populated area.

The boundaries were then redrawn to include the estate. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth from parents living in the expensive houses. Articles in the local Gazette where they explained with sad faces they had nothing against kids from the estate per se but it was..well just unfair on their own kids who might miss out and then there was the extra resources that would be needed to support disadvantaged children who would flock in.

A few years on and results at the school have actually improved with the wider intake. It's a supreme irony that middle class parents from further afield now try to get their kids in and it is heavily over subscribed. Incidentally I have no idea how DD got in. She attended the pre-school and it was our 1st choice but we are not in the catchment and I know of 2 kids who live closer who did not get in.

I teach in a very middle class secondary. Its inbetween three villages but also draws from the city. Old catchment areas still get priority as they always have but catchment areas in our lea are a tbing of tbe past. Standards are high, behaviour is good generally, Ofsted rated as outstanding. We still have disaffected kids, poorly behaved kids, permanent exclusions, a scarily high number of pupils who self harm, pupils becoming pregnant or having a pregnancy scare, young carers etc. These pupils come from all backgrounds, it isnt just the poorer kids who have 'issues'. The village school the op is talking about isn't just a good school because middle class kids from affluent back grounds attend. There will be a number of factors.

KIngswood Primary isn't worth falling out with a friend over according to OFSTED

I'm a bit confused now I know the location as there's a glut of affordable houses (130k for a 3 bed) within that area and a bunch of Ofsted Good primaries. What's all the fuss about this school?

what's all the fuss about this school?

thatstoast. I think the OP thinks the other schools are shit. End of their OP.

Should the rest of us suck it up with shit schools because we haven't paid to live on the private estate?

It's a supreme irony that middle class parents from further afield now try to get their kids in and it is heavily over subscribed

Yes. This happened with our local comp. People the other side of the city will literally fight you for a space at the same school now!

If the system means that those who can afford it can pay a premium to live close to a good school, the system is flawed.

And so it goes that schools with children from better off families will generally perform better. The status quo remains. The poor remain poor.

There is nothing snobby about trying to get your child into the best school possible - it's what we all strive for.

It's awful your friend thinks that it should be a matter of affordability or that council estate kids will bring down the quality. Does she think they are feral?

Quite apart from the fact that she's a raging snob, what on earth is she on about? Schools have entrance criteria. Either your child gets in on the criteria or he/she doesn't (and probably won't if it's over-subscribed and not very near). It's not for her or you or anybody but the local authority to decide who the school is or isn't intended for!

Well from some of the posts on here it sounds like kids from the council estate are doomed before the even leave their front doors. Do they all come from dysfunctional homes where the parents are workshy/drug addicts/prison inmates etc. etc. I find that hard to believe. I'm sure there are plenty of decent families on council estates too.

I used to live in a very nice part of London when my DCs were growing up. One of the secondary schools - a selective girls' school in a very expensive area - that was considered highly desirable by many of the parents of the girls at my DD's primary was stuffed to the gills with girls with one type of eating disorder or another; it was a massive problem. These girls too needed a lot of support from their school, even if they were all, without fail, high achievers.

Children don't have to live on council estates to come from a dysfunctional family or have problems.

Tell her you are hoping the civilising influence of the children from The Village (of Jumped up Bellends) will greatly benefit your poor disadvantaged DC.

Clearly there are many children from socio economically disadvantaged backgrounds who are not doomed and I have the pleasure of teaching many of them. However the research is out there as a quick google will reveal- students from such backgrounds generally, fare less well. Sad but true and I assumed most people were aware of this hence why people like the OP friend take the position they take.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2920529/

"As a striking example of the reproduction of economic stratification across generations, the children of economically disadvantaged parents lack access to resources and opportunities in ways that undermine their long-term social mobility (Fischer & Hout, 2006)."

"Economic Disadvantage, Children, and Family Life

Economically disadvantaged children enter school with less developed cognitive skills than their peers and then make lower grades and test scores, take lower level course work, and ultimately obtain fewer degrees (Barker & Coley, 2007; Duncan, Brooks-Gunn, Yeung, & Smith, 1998; Peters & Mullis, 1997; Raver, Gershoff, & Aber, 2007). Thus, economic disadvantage can derail the trajectories of educational attainment on which long-term socioeconomic attainment is predicated. Many structural mechanisms for these patterns have been identified (Arum, 2000; Bernhardt, Morris, Handcock, & Scott, 2001; Leventhal & Brooks-Gunn, 2000). Developmentalists have elucidated how the risks of economic disadvantage are also rooted in interpersonal contexts (McLoyd, 1998). Such research is exemplified by the family socialization (or process) model, which theorizes that the effects of economic stratification are filtered through family dynamics. In short, the stresses of economic hardship disrupt parents’ lives in ways that alter the organization of the home, family relations, and the psychological well-being of family members. Such changes are then manifested in child maladjustment (Elder, 1974; McLoyd, 1998). Although occasionally criticized as blaming poor parents for children’s troubles, proponents of the family socialization model have argued that it captures how parents and children are both victims of economic stratification (Huston, 1991)."

That was my 3 second google- there is a plethora of research on this.

My kids went to a very good school even though we lived about three miles away. Then some builders built an estate that just seem to grow and after a few years only kids from there got in as they lived closer There was a terrific amount of snobbery about the kids who went to that school, like they were something special It was so annoying, it was still a comprehensive

This place doesn't begin with a K does it? Haha. It just sounds totally like where I live! If it is, it's not exactly exclusive and she's being a bit of a prat!

Yes Unicorn, we all understand that children from poorer backgrounds are likely to achieve less in life, but it seems so sad that they are being dismissed as failures so early on in life before they've even been given a chance.

The general view seems to be 'lets dump them all in a crappy school because they're just kids from a council estate'. If this view is challenged and never changes how the hell are they ever going to lift themselves out of their current situation.

*if this view is never challenged, that should be

I've read the rest of the post now and it is where I live! I personally don't think of it as upmarket and affluent!

Jonsnow's wife- when I suggested you were lucky it was not in relation to your other life experiences with your child, that you did not mention in your response. It was in relation to getting your child into a school in an economically disadvantaged area, that is managing to be what observers decide is a 'good school'. I predict that the school will draw students from other areas, where there is not the same economic disadvantage. This means that statistically such students do not come to school with the same disadvantages that a critical mass of students from economically disadvantaged homes, come with.
I've worked at the middle class schools- yes a certain number of students from all backgrounds come with issues because some human beings struggle at certain points in their lives. However, there is no comparison between the middle class school and the school in the economically deprived area. A significant number of students in the economically disadvantaged area come to school having left a parent at home who may be an addict. That child will have not eaten because the parent cannot parent properly when they are entirely focused on feeding their own addiction. They may have gone to bed at 3 am because they are not supervised. They may also be facing issues of domestic violence, or a sibling in prison.Some of those students come in and you have no idea this is their reality because they know if they let anyone know they will be removed from their homes and put in the care system. Some of these students com in to school and 'act up' because they are trying to handle the trauma and they simply can't. It isn't their fault of course because they are just children but they can in a big enough number derail lessons because their behavior is challenging to manage and it can take years for new teachers to master the skills needed to manage the behavior, in such a way the other 30 students are not impacted. Often such teachers quit and take the job in the suburban area because it is very draining teaching in this kind of classroom day in, day out. The schools in the disadvantaged areas tend to get less qualified teachers who cannot get jobs in the 'better' schools. So, the cycle continues- the have get more advantages and the have nots get less- very unfair but many great minds that research this stuff for decades, have not found a solution yet. The friend is not being a snob- she is a realist and a regular parent and the OP wants out of her local school for the same reason the friend does not want the school taking students from the disadvantaged area. Everyone wants what is best for their child- the difference is that money often buys you advantages in many parts of the world, and so people with money do get to increase the opportunities for their child. People are earnest with their mouths but in their actions. Their actions reveal what you see with most people, if they have an opportunity to improve the chances for themself or their child, they will take it, or try to get it.