To be annoyed at this feminist

[PlayOnWurtz]

I happily call myself a feminist and will enter into discussions about it freely in real life and online. I got into one conversation about appearance and politics and how you rationalise body hair removal with feminism. I said I simply feel unclean, it's nothing to do with politics or being oppressed if I don't remove armpit and leg hair I feel like I need a wash.

Cue me being told that I clearly missed the memo on western socialization and oppression and that me removing body hair to feel clean wouldn't happen if I hadn't been socialised to feel this way erm no love I feel like I need a ruddy good wash if I don't shave I'm not oppressed....

AIBU to be annoyed and more than a bit

Erm, well I do think it's societal pressure that causes women to feel as though they need to time their body hair to be clean. None of us exist in a vacuum, so I don't think any of us can say we make our decisions without the influence of the prevailing power structure of the day.

So it's just coincidence that you and practically every other woman likes the feeling of being shaved?

I do think body hair is a personal choice so YANBU on that point, I also remove leg and armpit hair but mostly because I would feel self conscious showing those body parts in public without shaving and would hate to get any stares or negative comments. I don't really see how hair anywhere is unclean if you wash regularly though, presumably you don't remove the hair on your head to make your scalp feel cleaner?

Not saying you're wrong to do it, and the woman you came across seems needlessly aggressive, but I don't think any of us can say we act independently of our socialisation.b

Does the hair on your head make you feel grotty too?

And it's also coincidence that the vast majority of men don't bother to shave their legs/armpits/genital area?

I don't think arguing about personal grooming helps, but I do think our preferred grooming routines are heavily influenced by what we see around us. So I agree with your random argumentative feminist, but I don't think it was an argument I would have bothered with. Though it has made you think about the issue, so maybe it was worthwhile... But probably not, on balance, since it's made you so cross.

I still shave, btw.

Why isn't your head hair dirty then? Shaving that would be cleaner? Why do you think you'd prefer to wash your head hair to be clean but not your armpit hair? Societal norms perhaps?

There is a certain school of feminism which sees men as an oppressive class and everything that women do, which these feminists disagree with, is due to socialisation or the patriarchy.

It's nothing but a simplistic way of putting other women down.

@Sparrowhawk - they shave their faces and I'd suggest that 'manscaping' is becoming very prevalent. It's fashion and fashion is nothing more than making yourself feel good through the aesthetic you attempt to create.

Shaving your leg hair doesn't make you cleaner. It increases the risk of infection. We have body hair for a reason.

And where does that feeling of being 'unclean' come from? Why do men generally not feel that way about their body hair? It's no coincidence that many women remove their body hair (I'm one of them) but most men don't. We have been socialised into believing that women should do X and men should do Y, in so many areas of life. It doesn't necessarily mean that X is wrong, but it's important to be aware that these 'choices' are not as freely made as we think

Your friend is right, the reason you feel body hair is unclean is due to social conditioning. Not your fault, nobody's blaming you for being a 'bad feminist', but it's a bit stupid to deny the facts.

I shave because it looks and feel nice.
It look nice because it is the social norm to be clean shaven in certain places if you're a woman. Both men and women (generally) favour shaven legs and armpits. It has never been a natural thing, so clearly it is something that our society and culture have created over the years.

It feels nice because it does... I always feel like I want to drop silk handkerchiefs on naked legs while gently rubbing my calfs together slowly after I've shaved...

I remove body hair, so I'm not going to lecture anyone against doing it.

But the idea that women are unclean if they have body hair surely is social conditioning? Unless we are going to argue that men's hair is clean and women's hair is inherently dirty?

If I don't shave my underarms, I get BO, because I sweat a lot.

My legs, on the other hand, I don't shave.

Bad feminist? Or am I just doing me?

Not to mention that by saying you feel unclean with body hair, you are implying, whether you intend to or not, that other women who don't remove body hair aren't as clean and hygienic as you.

NB I'm a feminist and I wax and shave! I just understand what's driving my preference to do so.

Sorry, YABU. You feel that way because of the society you grew up in and the effects that the constant drip of messages about body hair have had.

I have it too - legs or don't mind so much but armpit hair squicks me. Because I'm being made to feel that way by zillions of adverts and conversations and images.

Caitlin Moran covers this:
You can tell whether some misogynistic societal pressure is being exerted on women by calmly enquiring, ‘And are the men doing this, as well?’ If they aren’t, chances are you’re dealing with what we strident feminists refer to as ‘some total fucking bullshit’.

Yanbu.

I think you're the only person in the world who is completely immune to socialisation. Well done to you.

I also believe a feminist would say "no love" to a another woman and then start an aibu to whine about feminists.

There is no 'school of feminism' like you describe hibert.

There was once a 'fashion' for foot binding. There continues to be a 'fashion' in some cultures for cutting the clitoris off an awake, screaming girl. Calling something a fashion is a lazy way of avoiding examining why things are done and the societal influences and consequences of them.

I hope the OP is a lesbian and never touches dirty men with their disgusting hairy legs and pits

I could just about see an argument that shaving your pits makes you feel cleaner, but not your legs - your legs don't get sweaty! I think your argumentative feminist was right. Personally, I know I'm being a slave to imposed cultural norms of female beauty and a bad feminist when I bother to shave, but it doesn't stop me doing it. I know quite a few women who don't bother and I've started to be able to see it as attractive so maybe I'll get there one day.

You're not wrong OP.

It is a personal choice, rather than a societal expectation. For example, I have pale hairs on my arms which I shave. My friends in RL, think it is totally odd I remove all arm hair. I have done so for 20yrs, and in all honesty seeing hair on a male or female on there arms literally makes my stomach turn. This does not mean I'm 'right', it is a personal preference.

I tend to lean towards feminism, but I can not abide other feminists telling me 'how' things are, or 'how' I should feel about a certain topic. Especially when it concerns my own body!