To be annoyed at this feminist

[PlayOnWurtz]

I happily call myself a feminist and will enter into discussions about it freely in real life and online. I got into one conversation about appearance and politics and how you rationalise body hair removal with feminism. I said I simply feel unclean, it's nothing to do with politics or being oppressed if I don't remove armpit and leg hair I feel like I need a wash.

Cue me being told that I clearly missed the memo on western socialization and oppression and that me removing body hair to feel clean wouldn't happen if I hadn't been socialised to feel this way erm no love I feel like I need a ruddy good wash if I don't shave I'm not oppressed....

AIBU to be annoyed and more than a bit

It's a myth that feminism is about choice. Feminism is about the liberation of women. Within the current system, women are likely to make the choice that is safest for them as they negotiate the patriarchy, which most often involves not challenging it.

(People seem uncomfortable with the word "patriarchy". They shouldn't be. Name the beast if you want to fight it!)

To be the problem is the use of the word "unclean".

I started removing all my pubic hair following illness which gave me hair loss.

For ME it is much easier to keep clean during my ridiculously heavy periods. That doesn't mean before I was "unclean" just I have found an easier way of dealing with my own hygiene

YANBU

Maybe, probably , you are influenced by our society. It doesn't mean you don't have free will and you should ignore your preferences. The opposite is true: some feminists keep their body hair to make a point, not by personal preference at all, which is ironic. Being a feminist ends up being oppressive?

I shave my armpits because I stink otherwise. I don't care what people think, I don't like to smell. Dirty hair smell too, but I am vain and I look better with long coloured hair.

TMI paragraph: when you have heavy bleeding (periods or post giving birth) it feels a lot cleaner to have short hair in the vajayjay area. You don't necessarily have to shave, but long pubic hair + bodily fluids = very gross. Too bad if "feminists" get their knickers in a twist because I prefer some comfort

I think my legs look much better hair-free, so what. Many men groom and I much prefer that too. My DH shaves his face otherwise our little ones complain that he is too "scratchy".

I would defend our right not to shave, but having someone in my face trying to force me not to shave would only result in me from being waxed from my neck to my little toes.

Exactly Cao. Not every choice is a feminist one. Make your choices but understand why you are making them

FGM isn't fashion; it's from religion.

Actually it's neither fashion nor religion, but deeply ingrained societal and cultural expectations, beliefs and pressure. FGM preceded the religions that it is currently practiced in, and is not dependent on it.

And back to the body hair thing. Totally agree this is all about social conditioning, but I wouldn't be so rude as to lecture an individual on it, nor do I think that's the way to progress feminism.

My DH is very hairy indeed, and he is always very clean and lovely smelling. So if a woman feels unclean if she has body hair then there must be a reason for it.

sorry, didn't mean to highlight my "TMI paragraph" whoops

Personally I find big bushes on any human being unattractive and I wax and dh has a tidy area. We are both post 50!

It is silly, though. The hair has a purpose. Really the breast cancer has taught me something. I'll also only have one breast at the end ( reconstruction would be a lengthy op) too. I do do makeup and have obtained a wig, mainly because I still want to look the same as I normally do. The shaving you don't really see much, half the time. I don't wear strappy tops in summer because I burn and I tend to wear trousers and jeans. In the 80s and early 90s, when I was in my teens, I only shaved in the summer anyway. This was not unusual. Regarding 'attractiveness' my DH was never scared or put off by body hair!

Sure, the fact most women shave bits men don't is related to social conditioning- and this was almost bound to arise in a 'conversation about appearance and politics '. That doesn't mean that it isn't also a choice made by each individual woman. I shave legs, armpits, bikini line. I know that if I was a bloke I probably wouldn't even if I wanted to - they're socially conditioned too. It doesn't seem like a discussion which should make anyone feel defensive or upset. Maybe the OPs friend should have avoided the word 'oppression' in this context, its a bit excessive and perhaps devalues the term to bandy it about over something rather trivial like shaving.

My dad told me that he shaved his pits once and found it one of the most uncomfortable weeks of his life (i dont think it took him a week to do it...just recover)

There is no point to my post...happy to admit it

I just wanted to feel included

I believe that I am a feminist. I believe in equality for all.
However, a couple of times I have attempted to post on a topic on the feminist chat board. I was quickly chased away. It feels very cliquey. You have to subscribe to some posters views of feminism. I hate the way they routinely refer to the Menz but would hate to be described as Ladieez.
It reminds me of the book, Possession, (Booker prize winner) where the main character is forced by the so called feminists she hangs around with, to wear a scarf over her blonde hair. There was a time in the eighties when all true feminists were 'encouraged' to have short hair. It was believed that long hair on a woman is the result of 'socialisation'. It reminded me of very orthodox religious views which insist women cover their hair.
True feminism has to be about equality of opportunity. It should not turn into a quasi religious set of rules which does not allow debate.

So if a woman feels unclean if she has body hair then there must be a reason for it

Yes. Ridiculously heavy, clotty periods. As I said I don't like the word "unclean" but practically for me it's easier to deal with having no pubic hair.

Armpit/leg hair I shave when they start to make my skin itch

It is definitely societal conditioning. I'm post menopausal so don't have much underarm hair so don't bother to shave what I have off whereas I used to pre menopause. I also don't bother shaving my legs unless it's the summer and I'm wearing something that will show my legs. Why do I bother to do this then when I'm happy to leave them the rest of the year? Because I don't want negative comments or looks from other people who to be honest are unlikely to be looking at a 54 year olds legs. They certainly don't make me feel dirty. I find that strange as there are so few of them compared to the top of your head.

I was surprised at the poster who shaves because of ingrowing hairs. The only time I've had any have been when I have shaved (bikini line which I also leave unless I'm going swimming - again under societal conditioning).

"FGM isn't fashion; it's from religion"

Not true! It's an African practice seen in Christian areas as well as Muslim, unheard of in the vast majority of Muslim countries.

hibert

I lurk on the feminist threads and no one has told me that

See now i dont feel included again

Surely Jaques with heavy periods you only need to remove the public hair around the vulva rather than everything?

@CaoNiMartacus

"beast"

"fighting"

You seem like exactly the type of feminist I mentioned.

Dh shaved his stomach once, cos i told him i couldn't see where is belly button hair started and his pubes ended so he shaved me a demarcation line

He was like this when he did it

And this til it grew back

Agree with those saying societal pressures

I might get my pits lazered...but its a bit painful and im scared

Surely Jaques with heavy periods you only need to remove the public hair around the vulva rather than everything?

I removed mainly first time due to hair loss and the recurrent regrowth being incredibly irritating on my skin. The discovery around periods was a happy side effect.

I remove every 4 weeks and it takes me minutes

Jiggly My first ever Uni module covered the Social Sciences. Societal expectations are often down to our 'perceived perception' of what we notice in our social world and what we perceive 'the norm' to be. This is fluid and changes continuously.
Recently I wrote a paper on gender identity as with Feminism, both share the denominator of it being a socially constructed idea. There are no firm 'rules' per se. Of course there are many cultures and identities to consider which differ, and every individuals experience is unique.

As per my previous post. I shave my arms, as far as I am aware society has not conditioned me to do this. It's a personal preference.

In addition, 'shaving' body hair is not a new western concept. There's much evidence going back centuries in terms of ideals of beauty which involved full body hair removal and other various body modifications. This is down to 'trends' rather than any perceived idea of feminist oppression. Of course if we all did something collectively (like not shaving legs, wearing sanitary products) it would become after time the 'norm'.

I've only ever been with one man that shaved his pubic hair and it really turned me off because I couldn't get the image of him with one leg up on the bath trying to get a bic between his balls and his bum out of my mind.

I agree, its also a matter of preference. We all have our likes and dislikes, and like you, I prefer shaved pits, I feel better and it looks nicer. Even men's unshaved pits are . Legs I shave if I am wearing shorts or skirt, but don't bother if its winter. Not everything we do is influenced by society. I guess though, If you come from a a culture which doesen't shave, than that would be the norm.

Women bashing other Women because they shave their bodies is not feminism, it is just women being as bad as men for bashing women who do not shave their bodies!

I haven't seen anyone bashing anyone for shaving, just pointing out that it's socialisation that drives us to do it.

aero

Agree with most of your post

But if a culture didnt shave surely that would be a pressure as well

Or have I completely missed the point

"However, a couple of times I have attempted to post on a topic on the feminist chat board. I was quickly chased away. It feels very cliquey. You have to subscribe to some posters views of feminism. I hate the way they routinely refer to the Menz but would hate to be described as Ladieez."

How did this work? How can you be "chased away" from an internet chat forum? You have- to subscribe? Or what? What happens?

Incidentally, the "menz" thing is only used in particular circumstances, not to describe men in general. I can actually imagine using "ladieez" too to describe the way some women behave.