To be annoyed at this feminist

[PlayOnWurtz]

I happily call myself a feminist and will enter into discussions about it freely in real life and online. I got into one conversation about appearance and politics and how you rationalise body hair removal with feminism. I said I simply feel unclean, it's nothing to do with politics or being oppressed if I don't remove armpit and leg hair I feel like I need a wash.

Cue me being told that I clearly missed the memo on western socialization and oppression and that me removing body hair to feel clean wouldn't happen if I hadn't been socialised to feel this way erm no love I feel like I need a ruddy good wash if I don't shave I'm not oppressed....

AIBU to be annoyed and more than a bit

The freedom fallacy is all about the stuff on this thread. It's in my piles of books waiting to be read.

I'm sure it's been covered, but of course it's social conditioning.

Otherwise all men would feel dirty.

Reminds me of this brilliant Onion article from years ago www.theonion.com/article/women-now-empowered-by-everything-a-woman-does-1398

"Only by lauding every single thing a woman does, no matter how ordinary, can you truly go, girls"

I'm not sure it's exactly relevant to this thread, but I love it anyway

God Bass that's really sad

Personal preference. As for views on feminism - it's a subjective area. Do what you are happy doing and don't worry about other people's views on the subject.

What about male waxing? Teeth whitening? Brow sculpting? Wearing perfume/after shave instead of our au naturel odour? Not women only issues.

Presumably our social conditioning and personal preference on such things is quite complex and goes beyond feminism alone. How much of our decision making about physical image comes down to subconscious biological signalling about our fertility/reproductive success - trying to appear younger, more womanly... or for men, stronger, more masculine etc.

Don't most of us just try to look and feel our best without obsessing over it, and trying to avoid negative judgement from other people (especially other women) by toeing the line in terms of what your particular society/culture expects?

The rules might be different for men and women (maybe therein lies the feminist arguament) but we are a social species and tend to follow the herd

I don't think shaving is down to the patriarchy....it is down to the cosmetics industry.

Who knew they needed to shave before someone put it out there (via millions of quids worth of advertising) that hair was dirty and that cool beautiful successful looking people with nice clothes all shaved themselves?

They are now turning their sights on men. The new improved undermining of male body confidence isn't actually something for women to celebrate as it doesn't lessen their plight at all.

It may improve the chances of someone taking the threat to societies mental health seriously though! Suicide is already the biggest killer of men ages 18-30 and if they start dying due to the cosmetics industries greed on top of that, then we might really see some action.

What about male waxing? Teeth whitening? Brow sculpting? Wearing perfume/after shave instead of our au naturel odour? Not women only issues.

Men are rarely shamed or pointed out, as if it were odd, by the mass media, when they don't do these things, though. Women routinely are.

How much of our decision making about physical image comes down to subconscious biological signalling about our fertility/reproductive success - trying to appear younger, more womanly... or for men, stronger, more masculine etc.

Why would the beauty/personal grooming standards be different across different cultures and throughput history, then? Presumably even across history and cultures there is still the biological urge to reproduce.

dances I feel my best by not making any effort to look my best.

When I look my best I am automatically buying into the idea my looks matter and that they aren't good enough as they are. When I stick two fingers up to the whole thing my mental health improves hugely.

Who knew they needed to shave before someone put it out there (via millions of quids worth of advertising) that hair was dirty and that cool beautiful successful looking people with nice clothes all shaved themselves?

Undoubtedly, the cosmetic industry, is involved in this societal pressure. However it is down to patriarchal values that means women are the number 1 targets. Also look at the way different products are marketed. Someone linked to this clip in another thread:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=85HT4Om6JT4

oh yes we are the softer target due to ingrained sexism...I just don't think there is a direct patriarchy - shaving link.

Morphine, I'm genuinely envious of your confidence. I'm a self confessed sheep, happy to blend in and not be noticed. Maybe a result of (bitchy girl) bullying at school

I don't think anyone is claiming patriarchy is the only influence on culture and social conditioning. There are many and various influences; religion, class, politics, racism, sexism, geography etc

This whole thread is about one of the influences - sexism and one of the things it influences - women's body hair.

I think it's rather topsy turvy to not be annoyed by the influence of patriarchal control on women's private bodies but be annoyed at someon who points out that is happening.

I just don't think there is a direct patriarchy - shaving link...

Ok, but what is the reasoning behind your thoughts on this?

It's not a criticism of an individual's choices, it's simply an attempt to explain how choices are influenced by patriarchy in this particular arena.

If you take offense it is probably because you are also being influences by this modern thing of basing your worth on your 'freedom of choice'.

Has the OP come back to address comments on their thread?

No! Maybe she's mulling it over??

women are the ones that have to focus on appearance the most because of the patriarchy...but whats currently in or out and why is now in the control of the cosmetics industry. Hairy and non-hairy have both been deemed superior at various times, so it not that shaving is a product of the patriarchy, it that obsession with female appearance is...and that you can make money out of shavers.

Anyone for scented tampons? Oh - you have a rash down there now? We have some cream to sell you for that.....

Fuckers.

Morphene, ah I see what you are getting at.

so it not that shaving is a product of the patriarchy, it that obsession with female appearance is...and that you can make money out of shavers.

I am just putting shaving in the 'box' of the patriarchal box of 'obsession with female appearance' and thus see shaving as a result of patriarchy. Whereas you are denoting this particular body hair fashions as a result of the cosmetic industry.

The thing is in a patriarchy, the cosmetics industry will be a patriarchal one - so still patriarchy is influencing whether we shave or not, even though the specific fashions may change over time. It's like, in different patriarchal societies, the patriarchy might demand women cover up or expose more of themselves. Patriarchal values are demanding each extreme in the different societies.

It is also how women's paid employment can operate in a patriarchal society. It can demand women are at work and exploited, low wages, low status, still doing the majority of domestic tasks at home. So women can be equally exploited in the workplace as they are In the home.

Yes, I think you're being unreasonable. You feel unclean because you've been taught that it's unclean to have body hair. Men have far more body hair, are they unclean? I shave my legs and armpits but fully accept it's because decades ago a company decided they needed to sell more razors.

Offred has put it so beautifully:

I think it's rather topsy turvy to not be annoyed by the influence of patriarchal control on women's private bodies but be annoyed at someone who points out that is happening

I.e. shoot the messenger. The urge not to see it is very strong.

pondering yep I think we are on the same page now :)