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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be annoyed at this feminist

530 replies

PlayOnWurtz · 05/09/2017 08:01

I happily call myself a feminist and will enter into discussions about it freely in real life and online. I got into one conversation about appearance and politics and how you rationalise body hair removal with feminism. I said I simply feel unclean, it's nothing to do with politics or being oppressed if I don't remove armpit and leg hair I feel like I need a wash.

Cue me being told that I clearly missed the memo on western socialization and oppression and that me removing body hair to feel clean wouldn't happen if I hadn't been socialised to feel this way Hmm erm no love I feel like I need a ruddy good wash if I don't shave I'm not oppressed....

AIBU to be annoyed and more than a bit Hmm

OP posts:
ponderingprobably · 05/09/2017 09:45

Oh dear, I have let my hair go grey too. Except it isn't really, I got white streaks. It looks ash blond. This persuaded my mother to give up the dye. Hers is similar.

Point is, it often isn't until you actually, physically, give these things up, that you find the alternative is not so horrific as you expected. With the deodorant, my mum told me my grandparents never wore it. I only remember them ever smelling of soap. They didn't even have a shower.

Coffeetasteslikeshit · 05/09/2017 09:48

Coffeetasteslikeshit

With the insinuation that we're poor oppressed women who are doing what we're told and don't have the brainpower to understand that we're under the influence of society / patriarchy. That we're waiting to be enlightened and gain the deeper understanding of society that our hairy sisters have.

That insinuation is in your head though. I'm not insinuating anything.

FizzyGreenWater · 05/09/2017 09:48

Sorry, but evil feminist was right. It is social conditioning - otherwise you'd be frantically shaving your head too.

I don't shave. When I have shaved my underarms I've always been surprised at how much MORE sweaty and smelly it is. That's what the hair does - traps sweat away from the body so it doesn't stay on your skin and get broken down by the bacteria on your skin - that's what makes the smell. No hair - slick wet smelly skin with all the sweat just running over it. Yuk.

No doubt if I shaved, I'd be used to that feeling and the sensation of hair there would be different and I'd maybe notice it more-? Don't know - but it's simply incorrect to say that hair results in being smellier and sweatier. It's the opposite. That's why the hair grows there.

Anecdoche · 05/09/2017 09:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MaryLennoxsScowl · 05/09/2017 09:51

on this thread, the feminists who believe in social conditioning have been much more polite and measured than those who don't. And haven't called anyone a feminazi or a doormat or criticised anyone for shaving - in fact, they've mostly said they still do it too, they're just aware their 'choice' to do so was heavily influenced.

JacquesHammer · 05/09/2017 09:52

It is social conditioning - otherwise you'd be frantically shaving your head too

Well if I menstruated at the rate I do out of my head then yes, I absolutely would be shaving my head in the same way as I wax my pubic hair. Fortunately I don't Grin

velourvoyageur · 05/09/2017 09:53

OP I've read it's actually cleaner to leave the hair as it wicks sweat (bacteria) away from your skin. If you shave it, unless you're washing a few times a day, your skin will be coated with more bacteria than if you let the hair do the job it's intended for. Why don't you remove all your eyebrows and eyelashes then, or your head hair? Eyebrows & eyelashes trap loads of sweat and prevent it from flooding your eyes, how come you're not grossed out by them? Your argument doesn't hold water (Grin)

You might think you're using the word 'clean' to mean 'free from germs' or whatever, but it may be really a mask for 'pure'/'correct'/'approved' etc. Do you not think about the reasons for why you think you need a wash? The connection between hair and dirt is not an original one you've made yourself. It is a carefully constructed mechanism by which means women are vulnerable to certain social forces purely by dint of their biology. Really excellent and efficient control mechanism which has been reproduced in countless social groups throughout history, not just the male/female dichotomy.

I also have no idea why people have such trouble accepting that they've been brainwashed, why it's seen as such an insult. You really believe you're the only person in this society who's impervious to the insane amount of pressure we're under to look and be a certain way, and that you only coincidentally look and are this way because of your own original conclusions? I am a feminist and I accept that most of my behaviour is tightly controlled and informed by the restrictive social environment I grew up in.

sorry 4 clumsy phrasing, not had coffee yet

velourvoyageur · 05/09/2017 09:53

Xpost with just about everyone I see Blush

twattymctwatterson · 05/09/2017 09:56

But she's right. I remove my body hair for the same reason but I understand that I've been conditioned to do so. We don't say male body hair is dirty.

mrsmuddlepies · 05/09/2017 09:57

Bertrand, I can't find my last post on feminist chat but I am sure you can. I was told when I expressed my view about the casual use of the derogatory term Menz, that I was not on ' their side.
I'm afraid, I do feel very unwelcome when I post on the feminist chat board if I don't simply echo the views of the regular clique. It is a shame because that kind of policing closes down proper healthy debate.
I have seen feminism change over the decades which is normal and to be expected. The eighties belief that women having long hair was somehow wrong, the sixties belief in bra burning etc. Hopefully, feminism now does allow women to make their own choices about hair and clothing.

Fauchelevent · 05/09/2017 09:57

flying
Vocal majority darling. The majority of vocal users on these boards are not choice feminists.

7Days · 05/09/2017 10:00

But WHY do people want to do these things. Yes we get no it was standing over you with a gun. The fact some random does xyz is not that interesting in itself. When hordes of randoms do it, or change the pattern, then there is something else at play. Finding out what that is, is illuminating

BertrandRussell · 05/09/2017 10:00

What I find particularly ironic is that in the 80s women campaigned really hard to get rid of the compulsory shaving of pubic hair on admission to the Labour ward. Now we have threads on here with women talking about apologizing to the midwife because they weren't able to shave. Feeling ashamed about having a perfectly normal women's body.

morningconstitutional2017 · 05/09/2017 10:01

I used to shave my armpits and legs when I was younger and 'tidy up' my lady garden. For some unknown reason my leg hairs stopped growing when I got to the menopause - puzzling, as I thought it would have worsened due to hormones and all that. I just like the feeling of smoothness.

After eight rounds of chemo I no longer have armpit or arm hair and no eyebrows BUT I still have to pluck my upper lip - annoying.

Remember when Julia Roberts revealed hairy armpits? It was front page news which was absolutely ridiculous.

backOffSunshine · 05/09/2017 10:02

@Coffeetasteslikeshit

Yes, insinuation requires it to be perceived as so by the audience. Surely that's obvious?

Pensionista · 05/09/2017 10:02

What tf is a "choice feminist"?

hibertMcSchlibert · 05/09/2017 10:03

Choice feminists are the kind that are allowed on MN feminist boards without being told they're wrong or conditioned.

7Days · 05/09/2017 10:05

What, hibert? You've misunderstood

ponderingprobably · 05/09/2017 10:06

Now we have threads on here with women talking about apologizing to the midwife because they weren't able to shave. Feeling ashamed about having a perfectly normal women's body.

Bertrand they shaved me (early 2000s)! They were apologetic, not me. Strange thing was they only shaved the top (of the triangle) a bit. Don't know exactly why. Maybe in case I needed c-section.

BeyondLimitsAndWhatever · 05/09/2017 10:09
Grin Umm, no Hibert.

Incidentally, this is the second thread I've seen you on this morning moaning about evil mn feminists 😂

BertrandRussell · 05/09/2017 10:11

"Bertrand, I can't find my last post on feminist chat but I am sure you can. I was told when I expressed my view about the casual use of the derogatory term Menz, that I was not on ' their side"

I did find the thread. You are misremembering it. One poster did say that- in quotation marks. Several others addressed the point in detail and politely and would have been happy to discuss it with you.

Coffeetasteslikeshit · 05/09/2017 10:11

backOffSunshine

@Coffeetasteslikeshit

Yes,insinuationrequires it to be perceived as so by the audience. Surely that's obvious?

Yes, but it doesn't mean it's real does it? Just because someone perceives that I am insinuating something doesn't automatically make it true that I am.

Dictionary definition of insinuation:

"an unpleasant hint or suggestion of something bad."

Where is the insinuation then in:

"Women shave because they are socialised to do so."

coddiwomple · 05/09/2017 10:12

campaigned really hard to get rid of the compulsory shaving of pubic hair on admission to the Labour ward

Fabulous, but the result is the NO SHAVING whatsoever on admission. Stitches + adhesive bandages on pubic hair after an emergency c-section is bliss. I didn't realise it was feminists we needed to thank for that, I thought it was just due to budget cuts (and lack of staff available).

On another note, as already mentioned several times, hair can be very uncomfortable, not all grooming is due to social conditioning. Women who keep their hair are much more conditioned, trying to make a point, than the ones who shave it seems.

BertrandRussell · 05/09/2017 10:12

"Choice feminists are the kind that are allowed on MN feminist boards without being told they're wrong or conditioned."

I think you might be misunderstanding......

MadamMinacious · 05/09/2017 10:14

She is correct, the reason you feel unclean is because you are socialised to feel that way about body hair. Men don't feel unclean about their hair because they haven't been told to feel that way. You have, however insidiously the message has reached you you have internalised a message which is expressly for women and not for men.

That being said it is your body and entirely up to you whether you shave or don't shave and no one should be judged for their choice in that.