To be annoyed at this feminist

[PlayOnWurtz]

I happily call myself a feminist and will enter into discussions about it freely in real life and online. I got into one conversation about appearance and politics and how you rationalise body hair removal with feminism. I said I simply feel unclean, it's nothing to do with politics or being oppressed if I don't remove armpit and leg hair I feel like I need a wash.

Cue me being told that I clearly missed the memo on western socialization and oppression and that me removing body hair to feel clean wouldn't happen if I hadn't been socialised to feel this way erm no love I feel like I need a ruddy good wash if I don't shave I'm not oppressed....

AIBU to be annoyed and more than a bit

pondering yes originally the hair was did serve a purpose in trapping germs and dirt from sensitive areas but we have evolved with showers and modern living. It serves no purpose now so can be removed or not as an individual chooses.

Of course it can. But guess what, I don't shower everyday either! It's interesting I've got a Tudor history book by Ruth Goodman. She followed the Tudor personal grooming routine and found she didn't smell. No deodorant, not washing as much. Shift worn close, washed daily, outer clothes not washed as much. She said she was surprised but she didn't smell.

The other aspect of body hair removal is the fashion industry. It suits them to spend ten or fifteen years marketing products and treatments telling us that all body hair must be removed.

In twenty years time, they can tell us that a full bush is expected, and then they can sell us products to paint on to make all the sparse hair look full again. Just the way it has happened with eyebrows.

I'm not claiming to be immune to all this myself, I remove body hair, and I use makeup to make my eyebrows look thicker, because years of plucking them out has left them sparse.

It's how the modern world is - find a problem that people didn't know they had, then sell them something to fix it. When everyone has fixed it, changed the problem. And repeat.

Of course feminists try to push their agenda. Being smug, condescending about the "oppressed" woman who is acting like a sheep because she shaves, stay homes, takes her husband name...The passive-aggressiveness about it all is farcical.
I find them quite funny, but some are so nasty, they could really upset someone who is struggling. But putting down other women who do not share their entire belief system is "liberating" apparently...

user, spot on.

Thanks @Lovingmybear2

I have no issue with women who WANT to keep their hair, and I don't think it's 'dirty' to keep it, or that it looks bad.

It's just not for me; I prefer to shave it, as I like the way it looks and feels. And I get royally fucked off with uber feminazis telling me I am bowing to societal pressures, and being a good little wumman, by doing what mah MAN wants.

This 'OF COURSE you are bowing to pressure!' insistence from a few posters on this thread is giving me the fucking rage.

Seriously, don't TELL me how I feel. You don't know me FFS!!!!

People who insist they know how you feel, and know why you are doing something, and who tell you that you don't know your own mind seriously make me sick.

To use the sj favourite term - choices aren't made in a vacuum.

First of all the notion of it being unclean is not correct. As a baby feminist I went through a phase of not shaving so now as an adult I'm not grossed out by my hair that naturally grows on my body. When I did have hair, people would look at me with disgust. My friend said similar, people would ask her "don't you stink?"
Why don't men get that reaction? If we look at the media, hairy women are portrayed as grotty and we're used to seeing completely hairless (head excluded ) women. Why is that.

Fundamentally, when confronted with a double standard between men and women the question to ask is "why is that?" where does that idea come from. Why are women held to such a higher standard of grooming than men?

I shave sometimes, as well as wearing make up and loving the colour pink and glamorous things. I don't pretend these choices are aside from what I was conditioned to like. It's not a bad thing and it doesn't make me stupid or a man pleaser or anti-feminist. But it doesn't CHANGE the fact that a love of make up isn't some anti-patriarchal statement, it's buying into an ideal that society wants me to buy into.

Secondly "feminism is all about choice" is one type of feminism and the vocal majority on MN tend not to subscribe to it. Including me. Choice feminism is simplistic and imho exists only recruit more numbers. Choice feminism says "you can choose to do whatever you want because all choices are feminist!! Everything a woman does is feminist" and well, it's not. A woman could choose to make it to CEO and employ unpaid undocumented women to work in her house - not a feminist choice. Likewise being a surrendered wife - not a feminist choice. Radical feminism doesn't DENY your right to choose - it simply won't coddle you and tell you those choices are feminist. It's whole point is to get to the root causes of why women are oppressed as a class and eradicate them, not repackage the same old patriarchal society with a new name and zero changes so no one feels bad.

Finally - people are always saying they get chased off these boards for a different opinion. Never seen it happen. I've seen robust discussion where if one person's arguments don't hold up, they leave. Never seen someone chased off the board. Wouls you rather never be disagreed with?

Oh one last thing - many many of my italian male friends shave their arms and legs and pretty much everything (presumably - only ever slept with the ones who don't shave anything and are hairy beasts). Usually done because they say they are otherwise very hairy and it makes them uncomfortable.

But none of us live in a vaccume? We all know that. Those who keep banging on about how some of us don't realise that are a tad naive really.

I wear heels and dye my hair as I like my legs to look longer and don't want to look grey!

I am fully aware that if short legs abs grey hair were fashionable I probably wouldn't.

My choice, your choice who cares.

"Feminazis" ding ding ding ding ding

Oh of course it's a societal thing. Sorry your friend is right there. I find it 'normal' to have hair-free armpits and feel a bit better when I've dehaired them (even though they smell worse that way for some reason haha) and I can say it's likely I was conditioned to do so from the world I absorbed around me as I grew up. There are tons of things we've been socialised to think of as normal that we don't think about when we do them.

In Korea a lot of women can't grow much pubic hair so they have a hair transplant from their head to down there! They see a bush as a coveted thing and sign of fertility. That's their view as a group, like ours is apparently that it's 'unclean' (if you wash then you're clean btw)

It's more of a cultural thing, IMO. Women from some countries in mainland Europe don't shave under their armpits or their legs. To me it looks gross, and I could never allow myself to be seen that way, though I don't always shave my legs when I'm wearing jeans.

I don't think it's oppression. My DH shaves his face every day, and I would hate it if he didn't.

She said she was surprised but she didn't smell.

I would be very interested to know what she was doing all day. I genuinely wonder if there was not a huge difference between a lady doing a needlework all day, and a farmer doing physical work.

I would I do stink when I finish exercising. My outer clothes take the smell of cooking etc.. but the sweat is all mine. Yuk

I literally only shave because it's what's acceptable in society. When I started my weightless journey and started going regularly to the gym and classes it was only then I started to shave my legs and armpits as a regular habit. I suffer from PCOs so I have a lot of body hair and I had given up the struggle to keep up with it.

However once I started shaving so I fit in at the gym and didn't gross anyone out with my unnatural body hair, it did become normal to do and I did start to feel a bit gross when I hadn't. Prior to that my leg hair and armpit hair neither smelt bad or grossed me out because I was clean and showered regularly.

I do agree it is a society conditioning and that having lived both ways it didn't feel unnatural to do so. But I guess now I do get my skin out to keep up with a healthy lifestyle, I have adopted a social practice that requires money on razors and shaving foam or hair removal cream... none of which are cheap but that's what I have to do to look acceptable and now as a result of habit to feel acceptable.

pondering do you that's interesting and I was reading the other day about hair washing! If you leave it to go past the greasy phase it starts self cleaning!

Still won't be trying that anytime soon. Trust me if I didn't shower or bath daily I would smell. Dh wouldn't but he is a lot less smelly than me.

am fully aware that if short legs abs grey hair were fashionable I probably wouldn't.

that's the thing, grey hair is fashionable right now. I still dye mine, I look much younger without grey hair. If I did look better with natural hair, I would not bother.

Sorry if tmi... I have a pysical job often get a sweat on but keeping underarms shaved definitely helps so for me I feel cleaner when they are smooth and deodorant on (obviously I shower after work)

But as others say that choice isn't made solely by me when I really think about it , seems to be more socially acceptable to be sweaty after a hard days work if your a man !

Jiggly Tuff,
Ugh.....where in my post did I say people do things in isolation from societal norms ? ?

Secondly "feminism is all about choice" is one type of feminism and the vocal majority on MN tend not to subscribe to it. Including me.

The vocal majority? Majority? Are you really sure you're in the majority?

More like the majority haven't got the time or inclination to argue for hours on end. The majority also tend to be quiet as they have seen the vocal posters swarm round them like piranhas if they don't agree.

Look at the Feminism Chat board. It's an echo chamber. Other views aren't tolerated.

@coddiwomple

Of course feminists try to push their agenda. Being smug, condescending about the "oppressed" woman who is acting like a sheep because she shaves, stay homes, takes her husband name...The passive-aggressiveness about it all is farcical.

I find them quite funny, but some are so nasty, they could really upset someone who is struggling. But putting down other women who do not share their entire belief system is "liberating" apparently...

Utterly brilliant post!

I mean God forbid eh, that women do these things because they WANT to.

There were three reasons I lost 3 stone several years ago, one for my health, one to look better and look good in clothes, and the third reason was so I would look good for my husband. I wanted to look good for him. I WANTED IT. Not him. He loves me no matter what.

It doesn't matter what you do or if you are doing it for someone else, as long as you are happy doing it.

In addition, I was happy to take his name, and happy to stay home for a few years to raise our kids - yes really I WAS HAPPY. Back to my career now, but am still happy I spent that time at home.

Upshot is; everything I did was because I wanted to do it.

As I said earlier, I shave my bits (and colour my hair,) and stay slim (ish) because I want to, and the fact my husband likes it is a bonus.

So the 'you are bowing to the patriarchy naysayers' can just do one, and quit telling me how I feel!

coddi I have no dought you look bloody fantastic

Mine though would go more silver than a nice grey so can't be doing with that.

I would be very interested to know what she was doing all day. I genuinely wonder if there was not a huge difference between a lady doing a needlework all day, and a farmer doing physical work.

There was lots of physical work. She ran a small holding.

"Of course feminists try to push their agenda. Being smug, condescending about the "oppressed" woman who is acting like a sheep because she shaves, stay homes, takes her husband name...The passive-aggressiveness about it all is farcical.
I find them quite funny, but some are so nasty, they could really upset someone who is struggling. But putting down other women who do not share their entire belief system is "liberating" apparently..."

Where do you meet these awful women?

user1490607838

I'm not sure you know what societal conditioning means. It certainly doesn't mean that your husband has any say in what you do.

Where do you meet these awful women?

Mumsnet

"Look at the Feminism Chat board. It's an echo chamber. Other views aren't tolerated."

How are they suppressed?

There-are often very long discussions with lots of points ov view being expressed. Haven't you noticed?

JiggleyTuff..Saying men didn't have beards ten years ago is rubbish. Men have had beards since time began. It's a big world, you seem to live in a little world. But like I said who tfc

I see a few references being made here to feeling like a "bad" feminist. What is that about? For goodness sake, being a slave to feminism is as bad as being a slave to anything or anyone else. We can do what we like as far as body hair is concerned. I feel the most important thing here is that we make sure other womens' choices are respected.