To be annoyed at this feminist

[PlayOnWurtz]

I happily call myself a feminist and will enter into discussions about it freely in real life and online. I got into one conversation about appearance and politics and how you rationalise body hair removal with feminism. I said I simply feel unclean, it's nothing to do with politics or being oppressed if I don't remove armpit and leg hair I feel like I need a wash.

Cue me being told that I clearly missed the memo on western socialization and oppression and that me removing body hair to feel clean wouldn't happen if I hadn't been socialised to feel this way erm no love I feel like I need a ruddy good wash if I don't shave I'm not oppressed....

AIBU to be annoyed and more than a bit

I have to say the majority of men I've been intimate with shave or trim their pubic hair too and it's certainly my preference. It's very common with younger men and has been my experience for years (I'm 35 now). I don't find a big bush appealing on a man or a woman but that's my personal preference. Porn is always used as a reason why women feel pressure to shave so maybe this is an influence on men too as most male porn stars are shaved to make their penis appear larger etc.

Lottapianos and others upthread put it much better!

"it's nothing to do with politics or being oppressed"

The person is political.

Throughout time removing or keeping body hair, has been considered "dirty/wanton" depending on the opinion of those who want to control Society/Women.

It also isn't a coincidence that Women are having babies later, having cosmetic procedures etc.

Wider forces do influence most of our actions.

SongforSal - that isn't what the OP's friend said - she said it was societal expectation which it is. You cam rationalise it however you want, you may feel cleaner, enjoy the feeling of smooth legs etc but if women in the West didn't routinely shave their legs, it wouldn't be a thing. Not all women in all cultures shave.

I think it's sad that instead of moving away from women feeling obliged to groom their body hair, we've ended up with men feeling they need to do it too! It's equality, but it isn't freedom...

Of course it's conditioning. I won't have a go btw as I shave, not for cleanliness but comfort (I get long thick hairs that stab me and have had ingrowing hairs in the past which suck, despite washing etc the only thing that stopped them was shaving).
I don't shave my legs, armpits or other areas though. But i do think I would look better if I did.
The idea that we look better without hair, are cleaner without hair etc comes from social conditioning, it's true.
It's conditioning that both sexes receive in some ways

eg men feeling they can't have long hair, nor do anything "feminine" like work in midwifery or hair dressing, men in nursery settings being treated as a Paedo. My ex was a nursery worker and several women would not put their children in his care or questioned him about his career choice

discrimination and conditioning is everywhere.
For men, to do something feminine is bad. To work in a feminine industry, shave your legs (I know a man who does this as he doesn't like the feel of his hairs, fair enough, he's ripped to shreds over it If wearing shorts), staying at home is both admirable and seen as under the thumb at the same time (if you're single, it's admirable you're stepping up because your ex is probably crazy, a cunt or dead. If you're in a relationship you're under the thumb and a sissy and you should've worked harder and told her to stay home )

For women, to do something that doesn't involve staying at home, taking your husbands name, giving your child your husbands name, staying married (no one wants to be a feckless single mum, do they? Praise the single dads though! What champs!)... is bad.
Your natural wrinkles and grey hair will make you almost invisible.
Your body hair is bad and you should be bald from the eyebrows down...
we're all involved in these norms, big and small and they should be challenged.

But we won't get around this by being aggressive to people who believe the norm.
Talking civilly, allowing them to disagree and make up their own mind is the step forward.

I can't speak for all but someone insulting, degrading me or telling me I'm basically a mindless sheep won't make me side with them.

By the way I recognise my post isn't all relevant I just wanted to give a few examples of social expectations, discrimination and "norms" big and small for both sexes.
It's something we really need to challenge whenever we see it

@Sparrow

FGM isn't fashion; it's from religion and is completely different from harmless personal hygiene.

Tell me, what are the consequences of my shaving my armpits and just how closely do we need to examine it?

@MaidOfStars

Caitlin Moran is an idiot for many reasons but one of them is the complete devaluing of the word 'misogynist'.

Do I think my legs look prettier when they are all smooth and hairless? I do. I also, for example, think I look prettier when I'm tanned. My Indian friend thinks she looks prettier when she's as pale as possible. I don't think we came up with those ideas in a vacuum.

If you've been removing your hair since your early teens then it stands to reason that allowing it to grow back will not feel 'quite right' as you're simply not used to it. However, the reasons for removing it in the first place are certainly due to socialization.

I'm a feminist and I shave my legs and under-arms too. As a PP said, I'd feel self-conscious about allowing the hair to grow, plus the itchy regrowth is not comfortable. I'm fully aware that I've been conditioned to care about adhering to societal notions of attractiveness in order to be socially accepted. I'm just not brave enough to risk drawing attention to myself by having hairy pits and legs out in public. It seems that I've made a choice not to challenge the social norms, but how easy is it to internally redefine personal notions of beauty after a lifetime of being exposed to messages that confirm the opposite, and then risk public derision and negative comments. Call me a wimp but I hate being looked at anyway, let alone when someone makes ridiculing comments.

Fair enough user1471429763, but how many of them shaved their legs, arm pits or any other areas ?

Some people think every human feeling, thought, habit and impression are the result of buzzword socialization!!
Pop-psychology, pop-sociology etc provides that dopamine release for neuroses people prone to counter their uncertainty and anxiety. If we were all tabula rasa - blank slates absorbing everything our parents, teachers and childhood/adolescent peers taught us - there wouldn't be much to disagree over let alone all this economic/social/cultural faction tribalism with regular allegiance switching, we'd never watch popular sports or entertainments in private, religion would be united over time, we'd mimic the customs of our neighbors, the teen years would be placid, the old would admire the young, we really could solve racism, sexism, classism and ageism through education and fashion trends would really count for something. Some of these people think every performance gap (think women vs. men's sports) is a reflection of learned self-doubt.

I don't like the feeling of being shaved, Sparrowhawk. I do still shave my legs, but only because I can't let go of the feeling that they look dreadful if I don't. Have only shaved my bush a couple of times as youthful experimentation and it was sooo uncomfortable and I've given up on my armpits and quite like them hairy now! I do trim them if the hairs peep out too much when my arms are by my sides though.

My DP shaves his chest, armpits and genitals often, I shave my armpits sometimes and my legs never. Do I get loads of feminist points ?

It's up to you what you do but the idea of shaving being necessary at all is a beauty standard implied by societal expectations of women and what is attractive.

This is interesting

m.mic.com/articles/151191/the-unusual-and-deeply-sexist-history-of-women-removing-their-body-hair#.wW1nNhhNI

You do MrsJamesAspey
I've also known a man who shaves his legs. Gets ripped to shreds over it though when his legs are on show.

I think that it's rare for a man to shave those areas, but I'll give you a special badge nonetheless

YABU to think your choices and preferences aren't influenced by societal norms, of course they are. Even if you don't follow those norms, you make that choice in relation to the norms. Because none of us live in vacuum.

I do believe that everyone should be free to make that choice for themselves, whether to shave/wax/whatever, without judgement. It's just that your choice can never be free of outside influences and yes, oppression of women is a factor on this choice.

Surely feminism is about having a choice on matters?

Women bashing other Women because they shave their bodies is not feminism, it is just women being as bad as men for bashing women who do not shave their bodies!

Be as annoyed as you like, she's right.

I've go to say, since being diagnosed with breast cancer, I don't shave much now. There is an infection risk, although electric shavers are deemed safer. I also couldn't wear deodorant for the first few weeks after my op.

I hated it at first but it was educational. I found I didn't actually smell that much. After a hot day only detectable if I actually smelt my armpits close to. Washing with proper hard soap twice everyday was enough.

Not quite used to the hair. But getting used to it. Did do the excesses of bikini line for hols with electric shaver and legs. Not armpits. It is getting more acceptable tbh.

Chickenwithrice- most also kept armpits shaved and lots opted for shaved/waxed chests too. The last time I was at a beach bar popular with the young and 'trendy' very few men seemed to have hairy chests particularly those under 30. Young men seem a lot more interested in grooming and style now, part of which seems to incorporate the 'manscaping' trend

YANBU to think that body hair is a choice and that it's perfectly possible to be a feminist and shave it. I shave mine. I'm afraid, however, that is absolutely true that there is a huge element of conditioning/pressure at play that makes women feel that it is somehow grubby or unhygienic or slovenly to have body hair.

What about the hair on your head? Do you shave that? That's much thicker and grubbier than any hair on your body, and your scalp produces loads of sweat and sebum. But women rarely shave their heads.

So, your friend is right, sorry.

It's absolutely fine to remove body hair - I do - but at least be wise to the reason you're doing it.

My armpits are less smelly when I don't shave.
Do what you want, but when most women generally do something, and most men don't (that has nothing to do with genitals or reproduction), then it is a result of societal conditioning.

@confusedat23

Noope. I believed that feminism was about choice but luckily MN has educated that foolish notion out of me!

It was explained to me that it isn't about having the ability to choose what I'd like, it's about working together "as a class" to overcome "males".

Make of that what you will but I saw it as an idea held by women who like the idea of a war and having someone to blame for their misfortune.

I am with confusedat feminism is about women having choices.

Personally I find big bushes on any human being unattractive and I wax and dh has a tidy area. We are both post 50!

Teen dds shave all over. Dss no idea but they use moisturiser so thinking they might be tidy, who knows and more importantly who cares.

Being hairy does not a feminist make any more than being shaved.

I don't think it really matters does it?