AIBU to not understand MRA

[ANewAlias]

I get that in the past women have had it tougher than men in most cultures.

This isn't the case anymore. Men / boys are facing their own challenges yet the term MRA is an insult. Is it because it's been hi-jacked in a similar way to the flag of St George has? If so, what is an unloaded alternative?

If it isn't hi-jacked, why is it used as an insult?

I'm not trying to goad. I just want a balanced answer which Google hasn't provided and I'm not sure any part of MN would either.

It isn't. Feminism is the notion that men and women should be equal, so the men's version of 'feminist' is also 'feminist'. MRAs are men who don't want to relinquish the power men have had over women; they are not egalitarian.

You think modern feminism is egalitarian? lol.

"You think modern feminism is egalitarian? lol."

Are you going to expand on this?

I find the argument about men fighting wars utterly moronic. Men have started almost all the wars ever fought. Women have campaigned and campaigned in order to be allowed by men to fight alongside them. Why the fuck is this situation presented as one in which men are disadvantaged??? It's so idiotic it's almost incredible.

Because MRAs are arsehole, privileged men.

I don't understand why it's used as an insult when there are clearly issues which do affect men and simply using the term as an insult seems incredibly sexist.

Well men should be looking at solving those issues, MRA's are concerned with taking hard won rights away from women. Paying women less won't make boys work harder at school, women not reporting rape doesn't stop rapists.

Comparing MRA with feminism is like comparing the Ku Klux can with Martin Luther King, one advocates for equal rights the other is about the powerful staying in power to oppress the others.

Men die more at work because their majority male employers refuse to implement health and safety practices adequately, not because women put them in danger. In contrast, two women due a week because men kill them.

I have only really seen MRA used as an insult on rape and sexual violence threads when it quite obviously doesn't mean men's rights activist

Wouldn't true MR be the same as feminism? Or do MRA want to maintain the status quo? i.e. not equality.

If the OP wants a proper answer to this question, then why are they posting the question on a Mumsnet forum which is 99% female in it's contributors.

If I wanted to know "what's up with these feminists" I wouldn't post on Pistonheads. Any answers would be written off as mansplaining, and rightly so.

If this is a serious question - can I suggest you try looking through a broad range of websites dealing with mens and fathers rights so you get a fair balance of the kind of views out there. Try googling "Inside Man uk" as a starting point - it's run by a journalist called Martin Daubney, you could even email him with your question and see what he says.

die

You used the term 'most feminists' but if that's true, why is the label being deserted by the majority of people.

If you think this is the case, you must not surround yourself with very bright people.

Wouldn't true MR be the same as feminism? Or do MRA want to maintain the status quo? i.e. not equality.

Men are not oppressed by patriarchy. Men who care about men's safety and health are more likely to be communists. Men who want to fight the oppression of women under patriarchy are feminist allies.

MRA actually do not want to maintain the status quo, they want back the times when women were men's slaves.

I think ISIS comes about as close to what MRAs want as possible - they want a female slave for every man. One that he can rape without fear of consequences.

My experience; MRAs argue with women about women, women's issues and feminism. They love to needle, goad and gaslight.

If they do mention men's issues it's usually to shut down or derail a discussion about women's issues.

I know some men who are active on men's issues. Male suicide rates, toxic masculinity, lack of awareness re male cancers. They don't call themselves MRAs and they don't join Mumsnet to spend their precious time being cunts.

I think ISIS comes about as close to what MRAs want as possible - they want a female slave for every man. One that he can rape without fear of consequences

Blimey.

It's always the same things too.

1. Family court (giving residency to the primary carer and expecting men to contribute financially to their children)
2. Mental health and suicide rates (patriarchal expectations of men, toxic masculinity and, sadly, men being more efficient at suicide than women are)
3. Death at work being higher for men (because male bosses do not enforce H&S rules. And because women have been traditionally excluded from many of the jobs under discussion. Oh, and the statistics do not include sex work)
4. War (which have been generally started decided on by male politicians. While men kept women out of front line service)
5. Crap jobs like being dustbin collectors are almost exclusively men (while many other equally crap jobs are almost exclusively women-and paid less)
6. Men being expected to be bread winners. (Except many aren't-and happily walk out on their families expecting the state to pick up the tab)

Have I missed anything?

I'll chip in with my opinion for what it's worth. I think that MRA and Feminist are both becoming too broad now. The definitions appear to be somewhat malleable, for example if you go to a university campus and find a woman who identifies as a Feminist there is a very good chance that she will be a strong advocate of trans rights (particularly in the US it seems). That woman would happily "no platform" Germaine Greer, also a Feminist, for her dangerous views on trans people. This is only one example of course but it highlights the point I'm trying to make. I've heard Feminists argue that there is no need for anyone advocating for men's rights because Feminists believe in equal rights, and wherever men and boys are disadvantaged Feminism will deal with it. I've heard others say the exact opposite so often you don't learn a great deal about someone when they tell you that they are a Feminist.

I think the same could be said of MRAs but perhaps to a lesser extent. I don't disagree with the PPs who've said that many MRAs are spiteful, venomous types who will sincerely deny that women are disadvantaged in any way, shape or form in 2017. Conversely, there are well-meaning men within the movement who don't want to hinder the goals of Feminism at all. They simply wish to highlight that they have experienced difficulties too and that they have recognised issues which mainly affect men and boys. These can be tackled at the same as womens' issues and you don't necessarily have to make a choice between being a Feminist or being an MRA. It's not a binary choice. I agree with those who say that the term "MRA" is a poisoned challis though.

"Conversely, there are well-meaning men within the movement who don't want to hinder the goals of Feminism at all."

Are there? Obviously there are plenty of men like that-but within the MRA movement? Really? Who?

Sorry, I had to step away. RL called.

I'll try to answer though.

@TinyDick

Correct, I'm not naive.Certainly cleverer than average. How you seem to know about my attainment and previous experience on this topic is beyond me though. What's your secret?

@WooWooSister

If you're right about the two distinct groups then it's simply poor form for MRA to be used the way it is on MN. If MRA is a splinter group of genuine people then it's ingenuous of include anyone who disagree's with 'the sisterhood' in this.

I'm not sure if I agree with you although, if you're right, it would certainly explain a lot.

@PlinkyTheFairyWitch

That's exactly what feminists are accused of doing.

@Bertrand

I would describe myself as an MRA. I write and talk in a measured and thoughtful way about men's issues. I do so in an academic sense as opposed to on a forum (usually). I am published on the subject of boys and academic attainment and keeping up to date on current research and best practice is a large part of my job.

Education and earning power is a big one to add to your list. Perhaps the most important although i'm biased.

@SonicBoomBoom

God knows what you mean

You suggest that I surround myself with unintelligent people because I said that feminism is being deserted.

Rather than insulting me, I suggest you read a little more.

You can do it. I believe in you!

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/only-7-per-cent-of-britons-consider-themselves-feminists/ reading practice]]

@SistersOfMercy101

"Why is feminist a red flag to op?"

I suspect due to similar reasons that MRA is to many who have replied to this thread.

Feminism began as a movement for equality of opportunity. Legally, women were second class citizens. Many of us feel like we've achieved our goals. That isn't to say we shouldn't still be vigilant but it means the main objectives such as legal equality are there. Feminism has now become a fractious ideal with the dangerous radicals ruining it for us moderates.

Feminism as a label is being abandoned yet people believe in its ideals from the past. I would say that modern feminism looks to remove men's rights to increase women's rights whereas that's not what we ever fought for.

@Datun

So, what am I? I'm one of the majority of people who don't want to be labelled a feminist any more. I actively campaign for male rights / see how we can improve male attainment in schools.

Are you saying that MRA has been taken over similarly to my notion of the St George flag?

@DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus

No, I didn't specify which rights I thought men were lacking but well done for the little PA s/he dig. It says a lot about you.

Tell me, what rights are women lacking in GB? None! Every right a man has, so does a woman. Surely even you can understand that this is a little deeper than 'rights'.

@Somerford

Interesting post. What do you think is an alternative to MRA or feminist, given they both appear ot be poisoned chalices?

Have I missed anything?

Its almost like there's a checklist out there, isn't it.

You missed how unfair it is that women are screened for breast cancer, while men aren't for prostate cancer. Which is women's fault, apparently.

OP, what is your analysis regarding boys and academic attainment?
I'd ask what you have published but that's probably rather outing so I understand if you can't share that.

@SonicBoomBoom

Why not reply to the direct question as opposed to anything else? The adults were trying to talk. I for one had learnt something.

Have you ever wondered why you have two ears, two eyes and one mouth?

@Datun

So, what am I? I'm one of the majority of people who don't want to be labelled a feminist any more. I actively campaign for male rights / see how we can improve male attainment in schools.

Are you saying that MRA has been taken over similarly to my notion of the St George flag?

As you have called yourself an MRA, I shall assume that's what you are. But you have obviously read the dozens of posts describing how every MRA conducts themself.

If you don't want to be thought of as the same, I suggest you don't call yourself an MRA.

If you want to call yourself an MRA, and then not act like an MRA, then be prepared to have to explain to people why.

I'm not sure what do you get out of that though. Sounds like a lot of time wasting to me.

I did respond directly, to Bert's question.

Your posting style is very recognisable in its goadiness from your previous threads, which is why I can't really be arsed to reply too constructively, as you don't bother taking anything anyone says on board.

Leaving aside the fact that having begun the thread with the statement "AIBU to not understand MRA", only to concede over 100 posts later "I would describe myself as an MRA", which is possibly one of the most overtly disingenuous statements I have seen on here (and that's saying something), I wonder if you could enlarge on the following?

"I would say that modern feminism looks to remove men's rights to increase women's rights whereas that's not what we ever fought for."

Which men's rights are we feminists looking to remove? Be specific here. Because I'm really struggling to see any.

The right which currently concerns me most as a woman (won't go into detail because of ongoing court case) is the right to equal pay, which in reality I still don't have . How does that take away your rights as a man?

Let's think of some other relatively recent legal rights women have gained. The right not to be raped within marriage. How does that one take away your rights as a man?

Perhaps you were thinking of the right to inherit a hereditary peerage as the oldest child - I suppose if we had that right it would remove the right of the oldest male child (not necessarily the oldest child in the family) to sit in a position of power and influence.

How about full bodily autonomy? If a woman is pregnant and doesn't want to be she still has to get two doctors to sign off on the abortion saying that it is a risk to her mental or physical health. She can't just say "I don't want to be pregnant". And that's in mainland Britain. In Northern Ireland, she'd better start saving the airfare to come to the mainland. What male rights would allowing her full bodily autonomy detract from?

Really struggling here to see what rights are being stripped away from men. You might possibly be being stripped of the privilege of automatically being seen as top dog in all circumstances whether you deserve it or not, but that really, really isn't being stripped of "rights" now, is it?