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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think men should not be allowed in female prisons?

181 replies

SmileEachDay · 02/08/2017 00:36

https://fairplayforwomen.com/prisons-safe-space

This seems interesting and factual...

OP posts:
Starflame · 02/08/2017 17:30

SmileEachDay because it answers part of the question and it's my input Sherlock? Hmm

MorrisZapp · 02/08/2017 17:36

I always assumed that women's prisons were less horrific than men's for the same reason that women's toilets, dormitories etc are more pleasant than men's.

Ie, because they contain women, not men.

BarbarianMum · 02/08/2017 17:36

Erm, yes, of course. This is the UK, not Escape from New York. Prison is to punish and rehabilitate.

Freddystarshamster · 02/08/2017 17:37

Datun. You're right but I really think it depends on one's politics as to whether that should make a difference. (I would personally have it exactly the same in both) Because of those factors the powers that be have deemed women's prisons should be "easier" IMHO opinion that's more than enough reason for your average con to identify as a woman.

Datun · 02/08/2017 17:44

Freddystarshamster

I still not sure I'm getting it. You want the nature of a woman's prison to be the same as the man's, despite the fact that the woman's prison is like that, due to the inmates?

How would that work?

Datun · 02/08/2017 17:46

Apart from clothing, I couldn't see any material difference in the way people are treated. It seems to me to be more of a reaction to women's less violent behaviour.

For what it's worth, I couldn't give a toss about clothing.

I'm just wondering whether or not plain clothing for men came about due to opportunities to conceal weapons, etc, in their home clothes.

Datun · 02/08/2017 17:52

When one half of the human race, the stronger, more powerful, more aggressive half, is overwhelmingly more likely to attack the other, weaker half, the absolute last thing you should do is take the most violent, most aggressive representatives of that half and lock them away together.

hackmum · 02/08/2017 17:53

Naice sounds like a delight.

The logical conclusion of Naice's argument is that there shouldn't be any segregation between male and female prisoners at all. Male prisoners are bad, female prisoners are bad, let's just lump them all in together. Male prisoners are currently at risk of being raped by violent offenders, so let's put female prisoners at risk of being raped too.

Sometimes it's quite bracing to discover just how horrible some people are.

Freddystarshamster · 02/08/2017 17:55

Datun. No there's a bit more than that, there's time out of cell, more telephone use, more gym time, more therapeutic opportunities. What I meant was, for me personally, I don't think there should be a difference between the male and female estate. I don't think women should get special treatment and it'd go someway to reducing the numbers of males identifying as females.

FruitCider · 02/08/2017 18:11

I'm just wondering whether or not plain clothing for men came about due to opportunities to conceal weapons, etc, in their home clothes.

No it's so they are easily identifiable if they escape. Hence the prison code stamped on the clothing.

bambambini · 02/08/2017 18:23

So if we have nasty sex crime prisoners - the transwomen nasty sex crime prisoners should be rewarded by being placed in a women's prison (instead of a man's prison where they would have to keep an eye open) while the nasty sex crime women prisoners should be punished by having to keep sn eye open for the nasty transwomen prisoners who will likely be bigger and stronger and possibly have a penis.

Ok - nasty transwomen get rewarded and the nasty women get punished.

Have i got that right? It's kind of confusing.

Datun · 02/08/2017 18:31

Freddystarshamster

Okay, I think I get it. You want to make the female prison less appealing?

Which I completely understand.

But given the transwomen get £25 a week for cosmetics, etc, i'm wondering whether or not they are getting treated differently anyway.

Also, although I understand the concept behind making women's prison let appealing to men, I imagine the very fact that they are populated by women, is the main factor. Not necessarily to predate. Just due to the less violent nature of women and the odds on being able to overpower a man.

Datun · 02/08/2017 18:33

FruitCider

So women can wear home clothes because they are less likely to escape?

Makes sense. Another perfectly good reason for treating them differently.

Unless the men who want to be transferred to a women's prison, are less likely to escape than all their peers too.

Datun · 02/08/2017 18:35

What it's worth, I do understand the concept of segregation by crime. But within those 'by crime' categories, prisoners should still be separated by sex.

FruitCider · 02/08/2017 18:50

What it's worth, I do understand the concept of segregation by crime. But within those 'by crime' categories, prisoners should still be separated by sex.

There is already segregation of sex offenders in the male estates, and prisoners are categorised based on risk from A-D. Remand prisoners are usually provisionally categorised as B cat.

Datun · 02/08/2017 18:57

FruitCider

I was responding to previous poster who said, something like prisons should be mixed, and then separated by crime.

But I can't see any benefit in that. Because as you say, that's effectively what's happening anyway.

Do trans prisoners get separated? Because they are more likely to be attacked?

babyboomersrock · 02/08/2017 19:18

babyboomersrock

I've never been called to a jury or asked to pass judgement. Forensic IT. Telling others who (in my professional opinion) was responsible for what on the internet or a computer etc. My opinions are taken extremely seriously because I am excellent at what I do. You don't seem to be arguing about the guilt of such women, just that men are always worse and that it doesn't matter what they have done, protect them from the men!

What? Of course I'm not arguing about their guilt, if they've been convicted. Also, I'm not saying that men are "always worse" - I simply said that, unlike you, I wouldn't condone the threat/fear of rape as a little extra punishment female prisoners deserve for being women.

FruitCider · 02/08/2017 20:34

Yes datun they get put in the healthcare unit.

Italiangreyhound · 02/08/2017 21:48

FruitCider so what happens when women prisoners escape, are they more difficult to spot? Or do they not attempt to escape in the same numbers, or is it less of a problem when/if they do?

I really think the opportunity for rehabilitation and excercise, improvement etc should be the same for female and male prisoners.

But I wonder if it is different because the prison system sets out to make life harder for men or the higher levels of violence and disruption make some things harder in male prisons.

It's great to have you Herr FruitCider, thank you for brining your knowledge. Flowers

Original poster
SmileEachDay · 02/08/2017 22:02

I still haven't heard any convincing reasons why it is a good idea to make a policy that will allow men to choose the female facility, with ease.

OP posts:
Pawpainting · 02/08/2017 22:06

Indeed smile. The only reason advanced so far is that female offenders deserve to live under the threat of rape and assault. Oh and that women's prisons should be as tough as men's ones. Hardly convincing. Hmm

picklemepopcorn · 02/08/2017 22:27

"Someone imprisoned for fraud is as unlikely to be a rapist as any other man so we can disregard them"
But is still more likely to be physically strong, and 'any other man' is more likely to be aggressive and commit an assault than women, and also this isn't 'any other man'- this is men who have requested to be housed with women.

Not very coherently expressed I know, but sheesh.

Datun · 02/08/2017 22:51

Exactly. Men desperately trying to get into women's spaces should be excluded purely on that basis.

MargaretTwatyer · 02/08/2017 23:23

Someone imprisoned for fraud is as unlikely to be a rapist as any other man so we can disregard them

But they're a hell of a lot more likely to be a rapist than a female prisoner. So if transwomen start entering female prisons you may see the likelihood of a woman being raped in prison go from 0.000001% to 0.1%. But that huge increase in likelihood is still not acceptable because it is so huge and every increase in likelihood is unacceptable. ONE extra woman being raped in prison to facilitate the whims of transwomen is unacceptable. And there will be rapes so it is unacceptable.

Rapists always start off with clean criminal records. They're not born stamped 'racist', and many, many of them will have committed petty crime like fraud before. So we don't know if that fraudster is or isn't a potential rapist. We just know the odds that they are will be hugely higher. Which is why they shouldn't be in a women's jail.

NaiceHam · 03/08/2017 03:33

BlurryFace

I belittled you by quoting you? Do you think that writing "duh" to someone is kind?

SmileEachDay

It sounds as though you're using feminist as an insult, but I'm sure that can't be true?

Why can't it be true? 54% of women do not want to be called a feminist. 35% of women consider themselves to be feminists. 1 in 5 women think being called a feminist is an insult. Don't blame men for this. link

What does a feminist pile on look like exactly?